Spotting dot bugs in VR

[Why485]

18 minutes ago, YoYo said:

Nothing special , I just put myself and my opponent in the editor, 10:00. 

What distance? What plane? The terrain affects this too. The sun is too low for 10:00 at the default June date, so that's not exactly right either.

Edited February 22 by Why485

[YoYo]

13 hours ago, Why485 said:

What distance? What plane? The terrain affects this too. The sun is too low for 10:00 at the default June date, so that's not exactly right either.

 

It doesn't matter at all. The dot is as big as it was. You're asking about things that have no bearing on this situation. As before, first a square/black box appears, then as it gets closer, the LOD is loaded and disappears. There is no information in changelog that they touched it - so I write that it works just as bad as before.

The dot that appears is the same regardless of the model, then when the LOD is loaded, it changes into a larger/smaller plane. This has already been discussed and you have examples in this topic, it's best to study it from the beginning.

Edited February 23 by YoYo

[Sarowa]

 

8 hours ago, YoYo said:

This has already been discussed and you have examples in this topic, it's best to study it from the beginning.

 

 

@YoYo You do realize you're replying to the OP from this thread? @Why485 is the spotting person.
 

Edited February 23 by Sarowa

[Why485]

8 hours ago, YoYo said:

It doesn't matter at all. The dot is as big as it was. You're asking about things that have no bearing on this situation. As before, first a square/black box appears, then as it gets closer, the LOD is loaded and disappears. There is no information in changelog that they touched it - so I write that it works just as bad as before.

It does matter, because certain situations can make the dot more or less visible even if the logic for what "triggers" the dot is the same across all of them. I ended up creating a similar lighting situation to your screenshot and the dot is more visible compared to my main spotting test scenario. I expected the combination of lens flare and atmospherics to make the dot more washed out than it was. It's just another data point to add to how the dots work. For the record, I used a Su-27 (in your example it was either Su-27 or MiG-29) and the dot is fully opaque at ~10 miles and then fades beyond that.

I'm not saying anything changed. I test this after every patch because ED has a history of changing spotting without any patch notes. I just think it's an interesting test case.

Edited February 23 by Why485

[YoYo]

24 minutes ago, Sarowa said:

 

 

@YoYo You do realize you're replying to the OP from this thread? @Why485 is the spotting person.
 

 

We are talking here about the official release of DCS and the current version of what DCS represents. Not about mods, correct? Mods related to the gameplay itself are not of interest to me, because some people may have them and others may not, and this has a significant impact on the gameplay, especially online. So thanks but no. If the mod became an official part, why not, but for now let's talk about what we have in DCS.

12 minutes ago, Why485 said:

It does matter, because certain situations can make the dot more or less visible even if the logic for what "triggers" the dot is the same across all of them. I ended up creating a similar lighting situation to your screenshot and the dot is more visible compared to my main spotting test scenario. I expected the combination of lens flare and atmospherics to make the dot more washed out than it was. It's just another data point to add to how the dots work. For the record, I used a Su-27 (in your example it was either Su-27 or MiG-29) and the dot is fully opaque at ~10 miles and then fades beyond that.

I'm not saying anything changed. I test this after every patch because ED has a history of changing spotting without any patch notes. I just think it's an interesting test case.

 

I can prepare a track, no problem if it helps for you. Regards! 

Edited February 23 by YoYo

[Sarowa]

8 minutes ago, YoYo said:

If the mod became an official part, why not, but for now let's talk about what we have in DCS.

That's the thing: it did. ED implemented that mod virtually unchanged in 2.9.0. It highlighted a lot of issues with spotting in DCS, which is why this thread exists.

Edited February 23 by Sarowa

[YoYo]

3 minutes ago, Sarowa said:

That's the thing: it did. ED implemented that mod virtually unchanged in 2.9.0. It highlighted a lot of issues with spotting in DCS, which is why this thread exists.

 

So @Why485 is responsible for what we have now from DCS 2.9? If this is true, it changes things and there is something to discuss for sure!

[Sarowa]

6 minutes ago, YoYo said:

So @Why485 is responsible for what we have now from DCS 2.9? If this is true, it changes things and there is something to discuss for sure!

"Responsible" may be a bit harsh against Why485.

Edited February 23 by Sarowa

[YoYo]

12 minutes ago, Sarowa said:

"Responsible" may be a bit harsh against Why485.

 

  It wasn't sarcastic, believe me.

[Why485]

On 2/23/2024 at 12:12 PM, YoYo said:

  It wasn't sarcastic, believe me.

I was disappointed too, as ED own the engine and so are able to do something much better than what I did. They didn't copy the mod 1:1, more like re-implemented it natively and at a lower level in the engine, with a couple improvements. I've detailed out my impressions and differences I've noticed in this post. The new spotting is an improvement over what was in the game before, but I'd like to see them go much further and make something better. The official line is that the current system will be looked at, but there has been no communication beyond that, nor any clue as to what their intent is or what they even see as the issue to be fixed.

Edited February 27 by Why485

[Spectrum48k]

Why was the Dot system brought into existence? 

Why was the Dot system brought into existence? 

Why was the Dot system brought into existence? 

[Why485]

1 hour ago, Spectrum48k said:

Why was the Dot system brought into existence? 

Why was the Dot system brought into existence? 

Why was the Dot system brought into existence? 

It was added after ED didn't get impostor system right on their first try, so they silently threw the whole thing out and replaced it with a dot system where a one pixel dot was visible whenever the object was drawn regardless of the distance. This meant that these dots were visible out to 30-40 miles (the approximate max draw distance for objects), and got bigger the lower your resolution was set. This system was around for several years. It was then replaced with the current system, which puts a cap on the distance these dots are rendered, while also seeking to address the resolution issue. For the majority of people this seems good enough, but there are edge cases, mostly in VR, where the scaling doesn't quite work. There's also a bug that makes the dot visible beyond ranges it should be. While I don't think the dots are perfect by any means, and in fact I think a purely dot based approach is not the best idea, this is still probably the best DCS has been with regards to spotting. Even ignoring the bugs, they are a bit too strong, and if we are always going to be stuck with a dot based system, then I think some bug fixes and tweaks would go a long way towards making it so good you don't even notice it's doing anything.

[SharpeXB]

On 2/27/2024 at 2:32 PM, Why485 said:

For the majority of people this seems good enough

You’re missing the obvious flaw here. Without an option to actually turn the dot off and as a mission/server setting players can currently exploit either the 2.8 or 2.9 option and see objects at egregious ranges. 

[Tippis]

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

You’re missing the obvious flaw here. Without an option to actually turn the dot off and as a mission/server setting players can currently exploit either the 2.8 or 2.9 option and see objects at egregious ranges. 

Wrong way around.

With the option to turn the dot off, players can currently use the 2.8 rendering method to see objects at egregious ranges. The new system reduces the range at which they are rendered. Now, arguably, you'd still want a mission setting option to remove that use case. And let's be clear here: that is all it ever will be: a use case — it cannot possibly be an exploit since it does exactly what it intends to. But that option would be to force the new dots on, not to remove them.

If you truly wanted the effect you claim, you'd advocate the exact opposite of what you're arguing for.

[YoYo]

In my opinion, it should be something between the current values, but better than in 2.8. The idea of the „box” is not bad, but it is crucial for VR and doesnt look good. Now I fly more in MSFS and IL-, not DCS, but when Phantom comes out I will return to DCS and I will give more examples.

[KoN]

Isn't there an option to turn the new spotting off and revert back to the old style. In the dcs options menu. 

[SharpeXB]

5 minutes ago, KoN said:

Isn't there an option to turn the new spotting off and revert back to the old style. In the dcs options menu. 

Yes. The “Off” setting just reverts the dot back to the 2.8 version. You need to restart for it to take effect. 

[Qcumber]

As I have posted earlier, I am running a QP and can update to v64 and still run DCS fine. A few other QP users have also found the same. All of us have developer mode enabled. On the DCS discord channel a user has reported that they can run DCS on the Q3 and have developer mode enabled.

I know fix is around the corner but just out of interest, as it's been bugging me why mine works, could someone let me know if they are using Q2 or Q3, if they have developer mode enabled, and if v63/64 has affected DCS. 

PS: please direct message me so it does not further clog the thread. 

Edited March 31 by Qcumber

[mytai01]

I would like to turn this spotting compensation completely off as it isn't at all realistic. I've been spotting aircraft for a living for over 30 years, and this feature just makes it way too easy. It was better the way it used to be. I'm a tower air traffic controller for a living. It's not at all easy to see fighter sized aircraft beyond 5 miles without binoculars, let alone eyeballs. Even a C-17 would be a dot at 15 miles away.

[SharpeXB]

6 hours ago, mytai01 said:

It's not at all easy to see fighter sized aircraft beyond 5 miles without binoculars

If a video game tried to replicate this realism its players would riot. They’ve been convinced by games with dots and icons that this should be easy

Edited April 6 by SharpeXB

[Tippis]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

If a video game tried to replicate this realism its players would riot. They’ve been convinced by games with dots and icons that this should be easy

Don't generalise from your own preference and experience.

Just because you're lamenting the loss of your 50nm spotting capabilities and have been arguing fervently against any and all improvements to spotting for ages doesn't mean that everyone (or even anyone) else would riot when such welcome changes happen.

9 hours ago, mytai01 said:

I would like to turn this spotting compensation completely off as it isn't at all realistic.

It's better than the old system, at least. It drastically reduces the range at which targets are displayed, and it tries to make resolution less of a factor so you can't cheese the system by changing your settings. It doesn't fully succeed yet, granted, but just the fact that it's trying and that it now has a maximum range that isn't “as far as the world is rendered” still puts it far ahead of where things used to be.

[mytai01]

On 4/5/2024 at 6:57 PM, Tippis said:

Don't generalise from your own preference and experience.

Just because you're lamenting the loss of your 50nm spotting capabilities and have been arguing fervently against any and all improvements to spotting for ages doesn't mean that everyone (or even anyone) else would riot when such welcome changes happen.

It's better than the old system, at least. It drastically reduces the range at which targets are displayed, and it tries to make resolution less of a factor so you can't cheese the system by changing your settings. It doesn't fully succeed yet, granted, but just the fact that it's trying and that it now has a maximum range that isn't “as far as the world is rendered” still puts it far ahead of where things used to be.

Actually, the old system in VR had me looking and not seeing it till it whizzed past me, if at all...that's more preferable to me...It should be an option, if it isn't already...

[Tippis]

38 minutes ago, mytai01 said:

Actually, the old system in VR had me looking and not seeing it till it whizzed past me, if at all...that's more preferable to me...It should be an option, if it isn't already...

It is.

But at that stage, you're not looking at dots either way so it's not really a factor. The problem is that much farther out, you might not be able to see them but they definitely can see you. With the new system, you may be able to see them sooner than you're used to, but you see them at the same time as they see you and the both of you see each other later than was possible before.

[KoN]

DCS , needs a new spotting system. OTHER flight sims have done it , time for DCS to catch up . On flat screen at 4k looks good . In VR not so good .