reported SA-15's ability to engage certain bombs ( GBU-38, APKWS, Durandal and GBU-54 Reported )

[Tomcat388th]

I have no idea if this is normal or a bug. Was just trying out 2.9 patch. Here a trk file ignore the colors I was messing with the new option and it didn't go back to default

J

sa15gbu38.trk

[Hobel]

There are real recordings where the SA-15 shoots at much smaller objects, so a bomb is also a good possibility.

[Killshot0597]

I've been playing around with the bombs and their RCS to see what can intercept what. I've found that the SA-15 can intercept the following bombs:
1. GBU-38,32, 31 (all 4 variants)
2. GBU-10, 24
3. MK-84

It can't intercept the following:
1. GBU-12, 16
2. MK-82, 83
3. MK-99, CBU-103, CBU-105

I didn't have the time to test them all but I have noticed a pattern that (disregarding JDAMs), the SA-15 was seemingly intended to only shoot at 2000lb class bombs, by the fact that the MK-82, 83 GBU-12, 16, and the cluster bombs are 500lb and 1000lb class ordinance. This inconsistency leads me to believe the SA-15 was probably intended to not be able to intercept 500lb and 1000lb class bombs. I have no documentation to show for this as in-game behavior is all I'm basing this off of. Either SA-15 should be able to intercept everything, or just 2000lb class bombs like I'm guessing.

I'm not sure if this is intended behavior but I just noticed the inconsistency. I will attach tracks bellow, though not of all instances. I don't have time as of now to make a track for each bomb listed but I'll post track files for MK-82, 84, GBU-12, 10, 38, 31. Just to show the inconsistency. If needed I will make time to post track files of all the other listed bombs.

Side note, I quickly tested the C-RAM and it can see and engage GBU-12 so the issue is likely not a lack of RCS coded into the bombs the SA-15 can't intercept.

GBU-10 Test.trk GBU-12 Test.trk GBU-31 Test.trk GBU-38 Test.trk MK-82 Test.trk MK-84 Test.trk

[spacemishka]

Live of bomb trucks is getting harder in DCS

[Mr. Wilson]

16 часов назад, Hobel сказал:

There are real recordings where the SA-15 shoots at much smaller objects, so a bomb is also a good possibility.

Well then tell me what it should shoot down and what it shouldn’t so that we can understand what now works correctly and what is wrong... Also, could you tell us what other old air defense systems that were already in the game have changed their operating principles?

 

[Mr. Wilson]

@BIGNEWY @NineLine  in the official patch note there was not a single line regarding reforms in the field of air defense operating principles. Could you explain what this is connected with?

[Hobel]

vor 52 Minuten schrieb Mr. Wilson:

Well then tell me what it should shoot down and what it shouldn’t so that we can understand what now works correctly and what is wrong... Also, could you tell us what other old air defense systems that were already in the game have changed their operating principles?

 

To be honest, I didn't know that the TOR /SA-15 in DCS could do that until yesterday.  

I think this is new.

   Therefore, I do not know which systems (except for c-ram) can still do that in DCS.  But my guess would be that it is close to the real capabilities, so my guess would be that the Gepard can now possibly do that too.

[Mr. Wilson]

17 минут назад, Hobel сказал:

To be honest, I didn't know that the TOR /SA-15 in DCS could do that until yesterday.  

I think this is new.

   Therefore, I do not know which systems (except for c-ram) can still do that in DCS.  But my guess would be that it is close to the real capabilities, so my guess would be that the Gepard can now possibly do that too.

Is it possible to invite a person from the development team who is involved in the maintenance and development of air defense systems to this chat?

 

[ACS_Dev]

It is absolutely new. Until yesterday objects classified as bombs were not engaged by SAMs.

[BIGNEWY]

threads merged, 

I will check with the team 

thanks

[BIGNEWY]

Hi all

I have checked with the team and it is correct. SA-15 is able to intercept tactical missiles and large bombs.

thank you

[SFJackBauer]

11 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi all

I have checked with the team and it is correct. SA-15 is able to intercept tactical missiles and large bombs.

thank you

Do you acknowledge the inconsistency presented by Killshot post and tracks above? Why is it engaging GBU-38s, which is not a "large bomb"? Furthermore, why is it engaging GBU-38 but not Mk82s, which are literally identical in size?

Edited October 20, 2023 by SFJackBauer

[Blackfyre]

10 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi all

I have checked with the team and it is correct. SA-15 is able to intercept tactical missiles and large bombs.

thank you

Define "large" please. Why does it intercept gbu-38 and not intercept mk-82 and GBU-12 which is basically the same bomb (mk-82)? A bit of consistency would be nice.

[Buckshot15]

Of note, GBU-24s are engaged by SA-15s, but do not blow up. The missile phases through the bomb.

 

[Mr. Wilson]

6 часов назад, BIGNEWY сказал:

Hi all

I have checked with the team and it is correct. SA-15 is able to intercept tactical missiles and large bombs.

thank you

Do you understand that in this case you are contradicting yourself? You are talking about big bombs, but at the same time they are trying to convey to you the information that TOP shoots down a small bomb...

[Mr. Wilson]

6 часов назад, BIGNEWY сказал:

Hi all

I have checked with the team and it is correct. SA-15 is able to intercept tactical missiles and large bombs.

thank you

If TOR can shoot down GBU-38 bombs, then he should be able to shoot down all bombs of that caliber. As you can see, he doesn't. This suggests that your game doesn't have a model that factors in the size of the bomb. Before the patch, your munitions were categorized as bombs and missiles, and TOR would only shoot down missiles, ignoring bombs regardless of their size. Now, it seems as if someone just labeled a bomb as a missile in the game code, and TOR started shooting it down. Please be honest here. Some people have dedicated more than 10 years to this game, and we are very familiar with its mechanics.

[Horikov]

17 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi all

I have checked with the team and it is correct. SA-15 is able to intercept tactical missiles and large bombs.

thank you

 

On 10/20/2023 at 1:09 AM, Killshot0597 said:

I've been playing around with the bombs and their RCS to see what can intercept what. I've found that the SA-15 can intercept the following bombs:
1. GBU-38,32, 31 (all 4 variants)
2. GBU-10, 24
3. MK-84

It can't intercept the following:
1. GBU-12, 16
2. MK-82, 83
3. MK-99, CBU-103, CBU-105

I didn't have the time to test them all but I have noticed a pattern that (disregarding JDAMs), the SA-15 was seemingly intended to only shoot at 2000lb class bombs, by the fact that the MK-82, 83 GBU-12, 16, and the cluster bombs are 500lb and 1000lb class ordinance. This inconsistency leads me to believe the SA-15 was probably intended to not be able to intercept 500lb and 1000lb class bombs. I have no documentation to show for this as in-game behavior is all I'm basing this off of. Either SA-15 should be able to intercept everything, or just 2000lb class bombs like I'm guessing.

I'm not sure if this is intended behavior but I just noticed the inconsistency. I will attach tracks bellow, though not of all instances. I don't have time as of now to make a track for each bomb listed but I'll post track files for MK-82, 84, GBU-12, 10, 38, 31. Just to show the inconsistency. If needed I will make time to post track files of all the other listed bombs.

Side note, I quickly tested the C-RAM and it can see and engage GBU-12 so the issue is likely not a lack of RCS coded into the bombs the SA-15 can't intercept.

GBU-10 Test.trk 47.29 kB · 0 downloads GBU-12 Test.trk 53.5 kB · 0 downloads GBU-31 Test.trk 43.48 kB · 0 downloads GBU-38 Test.trk 45.51 kB · 0 downloads MK-82 Test.trk 51.32 kB · 0 downloads MK-84 Test.trk 45.33 kB · 0 downloads

Hello,

Would you please check Killshot0597 tests ?

There is a flagrant contradiction and inconsistency in what you are defining as a "large" bomb.

Thank you

[BIGNEWY]

the initial post was about the capability of the SA-15 to engage various munitions, then we merged a thread. 

I will take a close look on Monday. 

thanks

[Atazar SPN]

Detection has improved overall. Yesterday I thought my NDEs were not working. It is much more difficult to survive in a hostile SAM zone, which from my point of view is something that offers more fun.

[Killshot0597]

17 hours ago, Buckshot15 said:

Of note, GBU-24s are engaged by SA-15s, but do not blow up. The missile phases through the bomb.

 

I tested the GBU-24 and the SA-15 was able to intercept it

[Killshot0597]

On 10/20/2023 at 5:55 AM, Hobel said:

There are real recordings where the SA-15 shoots at much smaller objects, so a bomb is also a good possibility.

There are 2 variants of Tor in Russian service afaik. The M1 and M2, which I believe we have the M1


While the Tor M2 has a different dish, more modern and likely much more capable of detecting and intercepting smaller targets (up to small drones)

[Hobel]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Killshot0597:

There are 2 variants of Tor in Russian service afaik. The M1 and M2, which I believe we have the M1


While the Tor M2 has a different dish, more modern and likely much more capable of detecting and intercepting smaller targets (up to small drones)

The Sa-15 should also be able to do this in the M1 version, but I would throw that out there as a strong assumption for now.

[Mr. Wilson]

В 21.10.2023 в 15:01, BIGNEWY сказал:

the initial post was about the capability of the SA-15 to engage various munitions, then we merged a thread. 

I will take a close look on Monday. 

thanks

Do you have any news for us?

[BIGNEWY]

50 minutes ago, Mr. Wilson said:

Do you have any news for us?

No not yet, I did not get the chance to go over this report yet, I have been dealing with other tasks. 

[BIGNEWY]

Hi all, 

after speaking with the team the SA-15 will try to engage projectiles with a RCS of 0.04 or higher.