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What's up with the price of button boxes?

Nightdare
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Nightdare

Nightdare

Posted
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Just a bit of a rant.

Don't get me wrong, everyone's entitled to ask for their product what they want.

But it's been a while since I was looking at additions to my pit and last I checked, things were 'affordable' (Guess simracing got pretty popular).

But now, if I reflect this to say a Logitech switch panel (which has a rather niche application) for roughly $100 (Tops), I'm rather amazed at what people are asking for a simple unlit enclosure with a few buttons, whether this be the good folks of the CCP or the "I make extras" DIYers.

Want a few more buttons? That money could also get you an Elgato MkII, which is customizable (of course this doesn't do when you also want rotaries or sliders) but by then we're already out of the zone of simple and cheap boxes

 

Well, at least it gives me the motivation to get a bag of 10 ct switches, rip open the carcass of my X-55 and/or G940 and go to town with a soldering iron.

  • Intel I5 13600k / AsRock Z790 Steel Legend / Gigabyte RTX3060ti OC 8Gb / Kingston Fury DDR5 5600 64Gb / Adata 960 Max / HP Reverb G2 v2
  • Virpil MT50 Mongoost T50cm Stick, T50 Throttle,  ACE Interceptor Rudder Pedals / WinWing Orion2  18, 18 UFC&HUD / Thrustmaster MFD Cougar / Logitech Flight Panel / VKB SEM V  / DIY Button Box

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Biggus

Biggus

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I agree, I've seen some horrendously priced boxes with a very small number of inputs lately, and the fact that they're often sold out is somewhat mindblowing to me.  I think a modest button box is really the realm of the DIY-inclined.

It's a really difficult niche when it comes to pricing.  I have my own 1000x1000mm CNC and I make my own panels and things as a hobby.  If I were to factor in my panel design time, my toolpath design time, my PCB design time, my fixturing and machining time, my tool costs, my raw material costs, my programming time costs, etc, I'd end up at a prohibitively large number that I cannot ever let my wife know about.  I look at some cockpit panel producers and cannot see how they could possibly be making a profit at the price they are selling them.  Then I look at the price of racing sim oriented button boxes and what must be their 100-to-200% profit margin and I scratch my head.  Market size is a hell of a thing, I guess.

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_Hoss

_Hoss

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Posted (edited)

There are Virpil (CP#2) WinWing (PTO2) BlackHog (A), Thrustmaster WH, TM_TQS Viper Panel, Crosswinds, and K51 Trim Box components in my reach right now. Figured I won't be using the Virpil example in my under-construction Left Console, it just didn't tickle my fancy much.  I'm really waiting to see just how well the Viper Panel works with the WartHog HOTAS in TARGET, GUI, and SCRIPT (TM_Combined)

So..... I won't buy anything else until I figure out if I can get all these buttons, switches, and axes to work in TARGET GUI, for IL2.  If there's ever a need for another box I'll probably have to get an NLR rig to mount it all on..... of course... oh and a new monitor... monitor stand, (triple monitor?) another keyboard, mouse, headphones (wireless?)..... etc... etc...   Doooooohhhhh!!!!!!!!     :wallbash:

:drinks_cheers:

“Buy what you have no need of and before long you will sell your necessities.”     :bye_3:

 

 


Edited by _Hoss
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Sempre Fortis

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agrasyuk

agrasyuk

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I think that the ocean of  AliExpress/temu  cheap Chinese junk distorted your perspective. I still have the engraver that I built my cockpit with and made some custom button boxes in the past. Projects were mostly under 200$. After all said and done as much as I spent on time and materials I would have made MUCH more if I did take a part time  job in MacDonalds or driving Uber. 

Its your money, if you don't want to buy don't buy. But if you asking me to build you a custom button box that you can't get ANYWHERE else don't expect me to work for pennies. 

ADD: if you think the prices are too high, maybe you should join manufacturing these and show us how to make them on the cheap?

2v2abJ9t5xUHnUD.jpg

 


Edited by agrasyuk

Anton.

 

My pit build thread .

Simple and cheap UFC project

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Biggus

Biggus

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7 hours ago, agrasyuk said:

I think that the ocean of  AliExpress/temu  cheap Chinese junk distorted your perspective.

I'll be honest and at my first read-through of OP's post, this was exactly my reaction, for exactly the same reason.

But then I actually went looking at the price of button boxes and noticed that the stuff that is aimed at racing sim guys (and if you're just googling generic button boxes, that's what most of it is marketed for) and was somewhat staggered.  I'm seeing button boxes with maybe ten buttons or switches, a potentiometer or two and four rotary encoders selling for $300AUD before postage on Aliexpress.

We're talking nearly the kind of money that you can buy a Winwing Orion throttle with.  For vastly fewer inputs and lower build quality.

We're not discussing bespoke cockpit panels here.  We're talking about glorified gamepads that happen to be in mountable box enclosures.  That part of the market (which is where most button box consumers look first) is full of profiteers and I think that's where OP's frustrations lie.

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Mr_sukebe

Mr_sukebe

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Posted

Be aware the IL2 has a limit of 8 controller/devices, as I found it out recently.

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System: 9700, 64GB DDR4, 2070S, NVME2, Rift S, Jetseat, Thrustmaster F18 grip, VPC T50 stick base and throttle, CH Throttle, MFG crosswinds, custom button box, Logitech G502 and Marble mouse.

Server: i5 2500@3.9Ghz, 1080, 24GB DDR3, SSD.

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Hempstead

Hempstead

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5 hours ago, Mr_sukebe said:

Be aware the IL2 has a limit of 8 controller/devices, as I found it out recently.

DCS seems to have the same problem. If a controller is not listed in the preferred game controllers when you open the Devices & Printers, select any gaming controller, r-click and select "Game Controller Properties". If your controller is not listed in the little un-resizeable little popup box, then, DCS doesn't seem to be able to access it.

I have 2 Razer optical keyboards, a Razer Tartarus game pad... each has analog optical keys... and they all wanted to emulate XBox 360 game pads... thus showing up with 3 additional XBox 306 gaming pads... and it seems M$ prefers to list XBox 360 pads instead of "others'." Meaning, when I plugged in TM TCA yoke/box, TM Warthog stick/throttle, TM Pendulum Rudder, and then TM Viper TQS... or even a Hempstick,... some of them won't show up on that list... and guess which ones don't get "preferred?"

What I see is that any controller doesn't show up on this list will not show up on the Control config screen of DCS, and the input of such controller will not be read by DCS.

My guess is that DCS is still using DirectInput, limited to 8 controllers (not a bad thing, b/c the newer console-centric XInput will only allow 4 controllers; 8 is still better than 4 from our PoV). Anyway.... if you want more than 8, you'd have to combine a bunch of them using either vJoy or TARGET.

 

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Mr_sukebe

Mr_sukebe

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DCS is definitely NOT limited to 8 controllers as I’m running more than that.

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System: 9700, 64GB DDR4, 2070S, NVME2, Rift S, Jetseat, Thrustmaster F18 grip, VPC T50 stick base and throttle, CH Throttle, MFG crosswinds, custom button box, Logitech G502 and Marble mouse.

Server: i5 2500@3.9Ghz, 1080, 24GB DDR3, SSD.

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Mr_sukebe

Mr_sukebe

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Posted

Well personally I just plug them in and then open settings/controls.

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System: 9700, 64GB DDR4, 2070S, NVME2, Rift S, Jetseat, Thrustmaster F18 grip, VPC T50 stick base and throttle, CH Throttle, MFG crosswinds, custom button box, Logitech G502 and Marble mouse.

Server: i5 2500@3.9Ghz, 1080, 24GB DDR3, SSD.

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Biggus

Biggus

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8 hours ago, Hempstead said:

Ok... then the obvious question is -- how do you do it?

 

Plug device in, go to options and start binding your controls.  There's columns for each device.  If I want to assign a function to my button box, I find that function with the search element of the category drop-down menu and enter the function name.  Then when I've found it, I double click in the box that is at the intersection of the functions row and devices column and a new menu will pop up.  I then press the button on  my device that I want to use.  So long as I don't exit the settings menu by hitting 'cancel', it will bind the button on my chosen controller to the function I selected.

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Biggus

Biggus

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7 hours ago, Hempstead said:

On the 9th USB HID device?

Please show us 9 or more controller devices in DCS settings, and in Windows gaming controller property window.

Apologies, I misunderstood that you were talking about devices and not inputs.

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Nightdare

Nightdare

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Posted
On 10/28/2023 at 10:31 PM, agrasyuk said:

I think that the ocean of  AliExpress/temu  cheap Chinese junk distorted your perspective

 

On the contrary, the base prices when doing a search on Ali makes it look cheap, but that's false advertising

Because that $xx dollars displayed is the desk mount, when you actually click the link and select the product, you're looking at a $xxx+ button box

 

Example:

nullimage.png (Yes, that's for a simple Made in China mount)

image.png

 

Or how about Etsy:

image.png

 

Now compare that to this:

 

image.png

 

Or this 

image.png

 

I guess, the good news in this, is that this improves the position the likes of companies like Virpil, Winwing, Thrustmaster, DSD, the garage-builders etc.

 

And look, I have a Virpil, VKB, Thrustmaster, Logitech setup here, so it's not like I'm unwilling to spend money on a hobby

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  • Intel I5 13600k / AsRock Z790 Steel Legend / Gigabyte RTX3060ti OC 8Gb / Kingston Fury DDR5 5600 64Gb / Adata 960 Max / HP Reverb G2 v2
  • Virpil MT50 Mongoost T50cm Stick, T50 Throttle,  ACE Interceptor Rudder Pedals / WinWing Orion2  18, 18 UFC&HUD / Thrustmaster MFD Cougar / Logitech Flight Panel / VKB SEM V  / DIY Button Box

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agrasyuk

agrasyuk

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4 hours ago, Nightdare said:

On the contrary, the base prices when doing a search on Ali makes it look cheap, but that's false advertising

While false advertising is indeed an infuriating phenomenon, I was referring to the fact we now have viable mass consumption electronic devices at an unprecedented low prices thanks to temu-slavery. and that might have set expectations that a simple button box cannot be much more expensive than something much more elaborate, like a BT headset that is at your door at 7$ shipped. 

supply-demand, it's a law of nature. nothing is ever up with it, it's just there. always. people want to buy low and sell high.

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Anton.

 

My pit build thread .

Simple and cheap UFC project

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MAXsenna

MAXsenna

Posted
Posted

Can they be equal? Like two Cougar sticks, and two MS FFB2 sticks?
Currently I have two TM MFDs, TM T16.000M, TM TWCS, MS FFB2, Warthog throttle with Cubesim Radar Wheel, Warthog stick, TM Cougar Throttle modified standalone, Slaw Rotor pedals (only axis), K-51 collective. That's 10, and I can up that to 13 with three more sticks. Oh, and I can plug in an Xbox controller too, if that would make an issue. I'm not sure I have enough USB ports though.
My two Razer Cynosas don't show up as game controllers. But that is probably expected.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

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metalnwood

metalnwood

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11 hours ago, Hempstead said:

Would you please post screenshot in the DCS Control showing 11 controllers please, excluding Keyboard, mouse, and Oculus Controllers.

 

I am guessing that you are scrolling to the right  as far as it can go in the controllers?

  Like others I have many, right now I have 10 connected, all showing.  I have never needed to do anything to show more than eight, they just appear.

left mfd

right mfd

lower mfd

icp

stick

virpil throttle

collective

other panel

honeycomb throttle

rudders

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Scott-S6

Scott-S6

Posted
Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Hempstead said:

Would you please post screenshot in the DCS Control showing 11 controllers please, excluding Keyboard, mouse, and Oculus Controllers.

 

There you go.

3x mfd, throttle, 2x stick, collective, pedals, quadrant, button box, controller = 11

If you can only connect 8, the problem is not DCS.

 

devices1.jpg

devices2.jpg


Edited by Scott-S6
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