Advantages to the Russian style of artificial horizon?

[James DeSouza]

Hello, the Russian style of artificial horizon has always struck me as being objectively worse than the western style as, because it doesn't simulate looking out of a window like the western style does it is not intuitive and so requires extra thought.  But obviously it must have had some kind of advantage or the soviets and russians wouldn't have kept using it, so I am wondering if anyone knows what those advantages are.

[HILOK]

guess it depends on how you see it or simply what you're used to. the soviet AH lets you steer your aircraft around a seemingly fixed horizon, kinda like an RC plane. i think that western AH are actually more cumbersome, because they require an interpretation: "my horizon is flipping left - i must be turning right". it's just that once you're used to this, it becomes automatic. and that's why we get totally confused when looking at a soviet style AH 

[Exorcet]

10 hours ago, James DeSouza said:

But obviously it must have had some kind of advantage or the soviets and russians wouldn't have kept using it, so I am wondering if anyone knows what those advantages are.

When it comes to this kind of thing, sometimes the advantage simply is all your training and documentation is based on the old thing and it would be a change to update to a new thing. I don't know if that is actually the case here, but it's not an uncommon occurrence.

[Hiob]

10 hours ago, James DeSouza said:

Hello, the Russian style of artificial horizon has always struck me as being objectively worse than the western style as, because it doesn't simulate looking out of a window like the western style does it is not intuitive and so requires extra thought.  But obviously it must have had some kind of advantage or the soviets and russians wouldn't have kept using it, so I am wondering if anyone knows what those advantages are.

I think it is neither an advantage nor disadvantage, but simply something to get used to. Keep in mind, that real pilots don't switch types nearly as often as we do, let alone from an eastern type to a western type.

HOWEVER, when they do that can actually cause tragedy when they have to rely on instruments in already stressed situations. I can think of at least one fatal mishap, where this transition has been put to the contributing factors. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Hiob

[James DeSouza]

That's the thing though, the idea that it is "just what you're used to" doesn't apply to the western style of artificial horizon.  The western style of artificial horizon just simulates looking out a window.  You see the horizon move like you would see the horizon move if you were just looking out.  Anyone can figure that out, even a 70 year old who has never seen an artificial horizon before.

The Russian system requires conditioning or interpretation, the western system just works based on what you expect to see.

[Hog_driver]

James, you may find this interesting (not much info but still, I just found it):

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Hog_driver

[Hog_driver]

This is also relevant I guess:

 

[Dragon1-1]

3 hours ago, James DeSouza said:

The Russian system requires conditioning or interpretation, the western system just works based on what you expect to see.

Think of the Russian system as a roll indicator and it all becomes clear. It's just about how you think about instruments. You're not trying to simulate the horizon, you're showing how far the aircraft is rolled. In a way, this makes more sense when you don't have an outside reference. This is especially visible in designs that roll the airplane symbol and not the ball (they're also mechanically simpler, which is another plus).

[Lace]

I believe the reason is engineering (and therefore cost & complexity).  The Russians are often fond of simple solutions.  A Western AI requires additional internal complications to show the 'correct' indication, for example, if you pitch up 10deg, then in order for the AI to show a correct 10deg pitch up then the ball needs to pitch itself up (i.e invert the movement).  The Russian one simply remains aligned with the horizon and shows a true 10deg pitch down - which with training is interpreted as a pitch up.

[Dragon1-1]

That's actually how the ball on MiG-19 works, for it this was indeed a technical thing. Later MiG AHs don't have this. We're talking the roll indication, which shows you the position of your wings relative to horizon in Russian aircraft. In a 45 degree bank, your roll indicator will be 45 degrees to fixed HUD elements and 90 degrees to the real horizon. This is pretty intuitive if you've started with it, but if you start with Western style, it can be hard to get used to.

[Rick50]

 

In Canada we have a few Russian/Soviet era helicopters that were imported for commercial use. I think they all/most received updated attitude indicators to match what we normally use in North  America. I think it had to do with certification, not just pilot familiarity. Mi-17's and 171's, and a few Kamov's were bought for heli-logging in British Columbia (between Vancouver and Alaska). I believe that some ended up getting a full glass avionics suite that is common today, along with iPad GPS maps and such. All very common today for many private pilots.

[Hiob]

On 10/23/2023 at 6:49 PM, James DeSouza said:

That's the thing though, the idea that it is "just what you're used to" doesn't apply to the western style of artificial horizon. 

What you are used to applies to EVERYTHING. 
Did you know, that when you wear prism glasses that flip the world upside down, that your brain will adjust in a couple of hours/days and will flip the world right side up again for you?

In stress situations your lizard brain will always revert to automatisms based on what you are used too.

Using a western style arificial horizon is learned, like everything else. It may be more intuitive to you, but it isn't inherently better. Your argument could easily be turned around in favor of the eastern style instrument.

Let me try to open a different perspective. 
As evident by countless accident reports. The "intuition" of what your inner ear is telling you about where gravity/acceleration is pointing always tops instrument reading.
That is why pilots are relentlessly trained to rely on instruments when they don't have a clear visual outside reference. Because your feelings are intuitive, instruments are never.

Edited January 30 by Hiob

[MAXsenna]

3 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Using a western style arificial horizon is learned, like everything else. It may be more intuitive to you, but it isn't inherently better. Your argument could easily be turned around in favor of the eastern style instrumen

I believe it's easier going East than West though. 

3 minutes ago, Hiob said:

In stress situations your lizard brain will always revert to automatisms based on what you are used too.

True. A few accidents on Mayday will tell you that. Pilots went from eastern to western. And I'm not saying Eastern is worse. 

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

10 minutes ago, Hiob said:

What you are used to applies to EVERYTHING. 

Absolutely, but there are indeed differences in how intuitive things are when you "sit down" for the very first time. As an example, it took me quite some time to get used to Western helicopters because I find Eastern/European helicopters a LOT more intuitive: the collective and pedals move "in sync" while on US helicopters they move opposite.

[Hiob]

7 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Absolutely, but there are indeed differences in how intuitive things are when you "sit down" for the very first time.

Agreed. Absolutely. But what you personally find intuitive is based on your experiences and learnings. Might be different from one individual to another.
Given, some things are generally more intuitive than others. But those, I would assume, are the ones that are somewhat more relatable from a evolutionary pov. Others like complex machinery or theoretical physics..... you get my point.

Regarding the initial topic. I think most of us westerners can't deny that we are much more imprinted by western artificial hrizons from the very beginning (MSFS 1.0 and onwards ) 

[Mr_sukebe]

My guess for the background on this is that someone in the Soviet elite watched a pirated version of Firefox, and thought that it might confuse a wannabe Clint Eastwood.

[IvanK]

The "inverted" pitch type arrangement (like in the YAK52) has in fact a US origin take a look at the Bell X! cockpit there is a sperry document out there as well describing this type of AH

[Nealius]

On 10/23/2023 at 1:53 PM, James DeSouza said:

But obviously it must have had some kind of advantage or the soviets and russians wouldn't have kept using it, so I am wondering if anyone knows what those advantages are.

Ease of manufacturing.