Is the Phantom a dogfighter?

[WinterH]

6 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

In the Middle East, there were lots of Ms (a gutless pile of dung at those latitudes) and some MFs, but mostly PFs, FLs, PFMs and F-13/F-7 around.

I think there were no bis at all until way after '73.

I was also considering 80-88 Iran-Iraq War there, but to be honest not %100 sure if Iraq had Bis then either, I'm inclined to believe they had, but not sure.

[Bremspropeller]

Good point! Tom Cooper (Wings of Iraq Vol.2, which includes IrAF up to 1980) says they did with the first Bis arriving in 1979. Those incidentally were refurbished SM and SMT airframes.

It seems there also were some Bis in the SyAF for the '82 war.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Bremspropeller

[Dragon1-1]

1 hour ago, WinterH said:

That's a bit of an overstatement. First off, DMAS is going to be the second, later addition to the module, we'll first have DSCG, and MiG-21Bis vs that is a pretty iconic matchup that happened IRL over Middle East a few times AFAIK, or something close enough did.

The point is, they're both slatted birds. As you said, it doesn't matter as much whether it's DMAS or DSCG, as both have similar ACM performance. MiG-21bis entered production for the Soviet Union in 1972 and it took quite a while before they appeared in other countries. Aside from Iran-Iraq war (for which we have no suitable map) and maybe the '82 war in Syria the slatted Phantom vs. MiG-21bis is not a particularly relevant matchup. The Phantom=Vietnam "meme" is a thing because the vast majority of air combat involving the Phantom did, in fact, occur in that period. During the later conflicts, it was largely a bomb truck escorted by more advanced fighters.

If you look at the Magnitude 3 forum, the wishlist for an overhauled -21 focuses on either the F-13 (my personal favorite, as you might have noticed) and the PFM, both of which are lighter than the bis. However, given how long Mag3 is taking with the Corsair, I don't foresee anything MiG related anytime soon.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Dragon1-1

[WinterH]

Just now, Dragon1-1 said:

The point is, they're both slatted birds. As you said, it doesn't matter as much whether it's DMAS or DSCG, as both have similar ACM performance. MiG-21bis entered production for the Soviet Union in 1972 and it took quite a while before they appeared in other countries. If you look at the Magnitude 7 forum, the wishlist for an overhauled -21 focuses on either the F-13 (my personal favorite, as you might have noticed) and the PFM, both of which are lighter than the bis.

And my point has been, slatted F-4E has been pretty damn active in conflicts vs MiG-21s, Israeli and even Iranian Phantoms are very similar, near enough the same with the first bird we are getting afaik. Bis has been exported late but conflict over Middle East lasted into 80s and it did see action in wars that involved both types. And for the earlier periods, Bis is closer than older types to the M/MF generation that was around during the 70s wars over there in my opinion.

Most people wants from Mag-3 for the overhaul is... actually making the Bis up to the current DCS standards especially in system modelling and also the art to some degree, I personally don't mind the art part though.

An F-13 wouldn't be an overhaul, but a new module TBH. I also want an F-13 in DCS, or bettter yet its J-7 equivalent that is the same but slightly better in that it has a couple more pylons and afaik one more 30mm. I also want a very late J-7 too :P. I actually want that early -21 a lot.

PF generation however, has been something I am very hostile towards, MiG-21 and Bf-109 are two of my favorite fighters of all time, and for both, I detest the main war-star variants with a burning passion: PF/PFM for the 21, and G-6 for the 109, they're practically the only variants of the respective types that I wouldn't buy, and we had a pretty long and colorful discussion with Bremsepropeller on the thread over Mag3's about that  Though, I've been, very slightly softened on MiG-21PFM... maybe... not so much about the G-6 tho, give me any other 109 instead of that :P.

[Bremspropeller]

I have offered the FL to WinterH as a deal for peace, but he wouldn't have it The PFM could launch the Kh-66 and had an exceptionally long service-life, while the FL later got four pylons and the late AoA transducer (India things). The FL also lasted very long and was very relevant in the ME.

I think it's very safe to say that an earlier MiG-21 - no matter if first (incl. F-7) or second generation - would fill in a very important gap of DCS RedFor. A third gen -21 wouldn't float my boat, as it's too similar to the Bis.

 

Asking for a friend: Any hot tips for indian MiG-21 literature?

[Tvrdi]

It will be ok on early cold war servers where it belongs.

[Victory205]

With respect to visual engagements, because of the weapons that the F-4E carried during the bulk of its service, you’re going to have to learn to maneuver to your opponents rear quarter.

It’s going to be fun to watch, but the skills required will make you a better ACM driver.

No more put the lift vector on, feet on the instrument panel, pull as hard as you can with both hands and pretend that you are ace of the base in your sporty F18. I can’t wait.

[Temetre]

vor 20 Minuten schrieb Victory205:

With respect to visual engagements, because of the weapons that the F-4E carried during the bulk of its service, you’re going to have to learn to maneuver to your opponents rear quarter.

It’s going to be fun to watch, but the skills required will make you a better ACM driver.

No more put the lift vector on, feet on the instrument panel, pull as hard as you can with both hands and pretend that you are ace of the base in your sporty F18. I can’t wait.

Funnily enough, the F-4E should still be one of the best front aspect attack planes in that era. Its got Aim7-E/Fs after all  

Depending on scenario, the 1977 Aim-9L is also the first all aspect variant. (though not quite the first actively cooled Aim-9 afaik)

Edited November 8, 2023 by Temetre

[Top Jockey]

46 minutes ago, Victory205 said:

With respect to visual engagements, because of the weapons that the F-4E carried during the bulk of its service, you’re going to have to learn to maneuver to your opponents rear quarter.

It’s going to be fun to watch, but the skills required will make you a better ACM driver.

No more put the lift vector on, feet on the instrument panel, pull as hard as you can with both hands and pretend that you are ace of the base in your sporty F18. I can’t wait.

 

Except for me, as I've learned some old-school F-4 moves with Mr. Randy 'Duke' Cunningham ...

And therefore I'll be an F-4 Phantom II ace against most of you in no time ; even with one engine out.

[Victory205]

Used to dip my wing to salute him when taking off to the south out of KTUS. He was incarcerated in the US Penitentiary down there, just off the end of the runway.

[SgtPappy]

4 hours ago, Victory205 said:

With respect to visual engagements, because of the weapons that the F-4E carried during the bulk of its service, you’re going to have to learn to maneuver to your opponents rear quarter.

It’s going to be fun to watch, but the skills required will make you a better ACM driver.

No more put the lift vector on, feet on the instrument panel, pull as hard as you can with both hands and pretend that you are ace of the base in your sporty F18. I can’t wait.

This is what I'm most excited for. While all-aspect heaters and reliable pulse-Doppler radar guided missiles are interesting in their own way, there's nothing like the kind of classic combat that's encouraged by the era when missiles were a lot more limited.

Also the ECM environment was much simpler (still classified today but it was much less ubiquitous in combat then, I think). The way ECM worked in the 80s and after are anyone's guess.

[Gunfreak]

13 hours ago, SgtPappy said:

This is what I'm most excited for. While all-aspect heaters and reliable pulse-Doppler radar guided missiles are interesting in their own way, there's nothing like the kind of classic combat that's encouraged by the era when missiles were a lot more limited.

Also the ECM environment was much simpler (still classified today but it was much less ubiquitous in combat then, I think). The way ECM worked in the 80s and after are anyone's guess.

The old missiles I think come to their own in multiplayer wih human reactions and humans situational awareness.

Against AI those missiles are a bit of pain. The AI "never flies straight" when in combat and very rarely can be taken by surprise. Meaning it's very hard to get a shot off. 

From reading the air to air combats in vietnam, with a few exceptions. Both sides usually got their kills when they snuck up behind. (As with ww2) 

And that's not really feasible in DCS with the AI. Can be done online, very hard in singleplayer unless you really hamstring the AI. Like adding no reaction and no invasion and only return fire type of restrictions.

[mkellytx]

It's been quite entertaining to read the pages of back and forth.  That said, there's a very good comparative analysis out there complete with lots of data, Have Doughnut.  It's highly worth the time to read the 300 pages or so of the report.  Granted it's an "old" F-13 evaluated, but that model was pretty common in the 60's.

havedoughnut.pdf (theaviationist.com)

As with any aircraft, if you fight to its strengths it will win.  Play the other guy's game and you lose.

A few snippets:

 nullnull

[TLTeo]

One thing to mention about Have Doughnut is that the buffet stuff is not really applicable to any Mig in DCS, and the control forces bit mostly applies to the Mig 15 and 19 but not the 21.

Edited November 13, 2023 by TLTeo

[Dragon1-1]

That's because our MiGs are old, particularly the -21. If they were made today, it'd hopefully be simulated, like it is in the F-14. RAZBAM needs to finish the MiG-19 already, and Mag3 needs to finish the Corsair and look at the MiG-21. At least the upcoming MiG-17 is being made to a modern standard.

[TLTeo]

Yea definitely, it's just worth remembering. On the other hand, the big about the Mig gunsight being terrible is still accurate even if for the wrong reasons

[Elf1606688794]

On 11/6/2023 at 6:34 PM, Bremspropeller said:

I know what both the F-4E and the -21PFM fwd view looks like, as I've sat in the former and stuck my face into the cockpit of the latter.

I've sat in the cockpit of many F-4E's and in the cockpit of a MiG-21 although I don't know which variant it was. In fact, I've sat in the cockpits of multiple MiGs including the -15, -17, -19, -21 and -23.

[WinterH]

When it comes to forward visibility, I expect it to be about as bad, or even a bit worse in Phantom compared to those old MiGs, but maybe it will be better than MiG-21 in rearward and upwards visibility. Periscope does a number on visibility up top on the mig, and rear visibility is near enough non-existant.

[MysteriousHonza]

Mind you all, 21 bis, even though we do have charts, is not performing according to them in DCS. It has broken heavily overperforming FM at subsonic speeds without any changes in close future. Hell, on their bug page, its being taken as high priority without anyone working on it and 2,5 years old report... We will be lucky to see important changes to 21 at all. 
https://leatherneck-sim.mantishub.io/view.php?id=1139

Edited November 16, 2023 by MysteriousHonza

[Flummi]

1 hour ago, MysteriousHonza said:

Mind you all, 21 bis, even though we do have charts, is not performing according to them in DCS. It has broken heavily overperforming FM at subsonic speeds without any changes in close future. Hell, on their bug page, its being taken as high priority without anyone working on it and 2,5 years old report... We will be lucky to see important changes to 21 at all. 
https://leatherneck-sim.mantishub.io/view.php?id=1139

 

Thats the reason I won't buy anything from Mag3 in the future. Developers who can't maintain their service of their modules are a no-go. --> no more money for more abandon-ware!

[=475FG= Dawger]

5 hours ago, MysteriousHonza said:

Mind you all, 21 bis, even though we do have charts, is not performing according to them in DCS. It has broken heavily overperforming FM at subsonic speeds without any changes in close future. Hell, on their bug page, its being taken as high priority without anyone working on it and 2,5 years old report... We will be lucky to see important changes to 21 at all. 
https://leatherneck-sim.mantishub.io/view.php?id=1139

 

There isn't much incentive to fix this. It will only decrease future sales to do something that makes it less competitive, even if it is correct.

[Omega417]

14 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

There isn't much incentive to fix this. It will only decrease future sales to do something that makes it less competitive, even if it is correct.

IDK about that, if they fix it the realism fanbois will come out of the woodwork for a bit. They would probably see a lot more sales if they had more -21 variants.

[MysteriousHonza]

2 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

There isn't much incentive to fix this. It will only decrease future sales to do something that makes it less competitive, even if it is correct.

Honestly, we need someone to do MF, PF or F13 mig so bis can be thrown out from all servers, maybe then it will bother devs a bit as it wont be even an option to buy BIS for MP player. 

Edited November 16, 2023 by MysteriousHonza

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Fixing the MiG-21 AI flight model would also be nice  

[Tvrdi]

On 11/8/2023 at 7:16 PM, Temetre said:

Funnily enough, the F-4E should still be one of the best front aspect attack planes in that era. Its got Aim7-E/Fs after all  

Depending on scenario, the 1977 Aim-9L is also the first all aspect variant. (though not quite the first actively cooled Aim-9 afaik)

 

Well, what you can take will be server side settings anyways, depending on the era the server is covering.