F-4E learning curve

[Migparts]

Will the Phantom be harder or easier to master than the F-15SE?

I am learning the F-15SE and it is challenging. I imagine the F-4E to be challenging in a different way.

Obviously they are aircraft of different generations, but have many things in common as well.

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Migparts

[WTFCSon]

I'm interested to find out for sure, but I think the hardest part about phantom mastery is going to be aviating and navigating . The systems will be significantly less complex than the mudhen's. However, that presents its own challenge around getting the most out of those systems used to get you to the right piece of sky with respect to the target. Getting weapons off the jet the way that you want should not be your greatest challenge. That's all done with manual switches that you can visually check the status of without going into a menu. I think being in the right place, at the right speed, and the right attitude (Jester allowing ;)) will be the hard part.

The phantom also has more aerodynamic quirks than the mudhen. Getting it off and back on the ground will certainly be more challenging than in the mudhen (AAR too).

Also interested to hear other's thoughts.

Edited December 13, 2023 by WTFCSon
double negative

[Kalasnkova74]

Harder, significantly. People used to 4th Generation tech and tactics will have to adapt to an iron sight, manually flown jet. Precision will be a factor of pilot skill at dropping bombs, not a setting on the MFD.

Air to air will be even tougher. Adapting from “match lift vector and PULL” tactics on 4th Gen aircraft to “manage energy and use the vertical” will be a gulf too large to bridge for some. I expect a small social media backlash after release of people accustomed to Flankers and Hornets declaring the Phantom “useless in a dogfight”. Especially when people depart controlled flight because they’ve spent their flight sim time flying computer controlled aircraft that never let them go out of control. 
 

 

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

It depends on what you are used to. After the recent Virtual Air Show demo, Graywolf said that the F-4 is pretty easy to fly and get used to provided you have flown the F-14.

On a systems front, Jester will take a part of the workload off of you.

Obviously, for people only used to 4th gen aircraft, any older airframe is going to provide challenges (and them seeing "bugs" and "faults in the flight model" where there are none).
Once we have a solid release date, it's probably not a bad idea to fly both the F-14 and the F-5 for a while to prepare  

[Keith Briscoe]

How about the community mod A-4? Would that be worthwhile and related practice?

[Gunfreak]

I think if you've flown the F14, F5 or A4 it will seem familiar to some degree.

I think in systems operations it will feel quite like the tomcat.

[WTFCSon]

1 hour ago, Keith Briscoe said:

How about the community mod A-4? Would that be worthwhile and related practice?

Absolutely, that or the f-5, MiG-21, Mig-19, Viggen, F-86, etc. Any older analogue jet will give you intuition for how gentle you will have to be, and how much trouble you can get yourself into if you aren’t. I’ve heard from one F-4 pilot that was on The Fighter Pilot podcast that it lands a bit like the F-5/T-38.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited December 13, 2023 by WTFCSon
Correction

[WinterH]

2 hours ago, Migparts said:

I imagine the F-4E to be challenging in a different way.

Mostly, yes. You will not need to know a bazillion MFD pages, ICP menus, etc. But Phantom will be harder to fly well, or to operate smoothly. At least that's what I think it will be like.

1 hour ago, Keith Briscoe said:

How about the community mod A-4? Would that be worthwhile and related practice?

Kind of I guess. F-4E has more and more complex systems and weaponry on board. But at the same time, look and feel of the cockpit design and instruments will be similar enough. As far as I know, the dive-toss and laydown bombing modes we'll have on F-4E DSCG and computer bombing mode on A-4E are fairly similar.

[Voyager]

I think in terms of aerodynamic handling qualities, it will be harder, but in terms of systems it will be simpler. 

Sort of like the F-14. I've flown a lot of WWI/WWII things like rudder on wing drop was basically instinctive for me, while trying to figure out and fight the electronics in a modern fighter, I'm not even sure how to turn on the F/A-18C much less how to get it off the ground. 

[Bremspropeller]

The closest thing to the F-4 right now is the F1. You'll only get half of everything (engines, people, A-A missiles). Well, not exactly, as it's got twice the guns and looks 10 times better.

Joking aside, it's actually a the best prep for the F-4E:

- similar roles, similar'ish timeframe (roughly mid 70s to mid 80s)

- Fox1 capability with a crappy radar

- handling should be very close, too

The F-5 handles too different and won't be able to reproduce radar and Fox1s. It also kinematically just isn't up for it. The MiGs are just completely different, same with the Viggen. The F-14 has all the HB flavour, but handles more benign in the phonebooth and it's radar and A-A weaponry are too advanced to get you hitting the ground running in the F-4.

[Raisuli]

23 minutes ago, Voyager said:

I think in terms of aerodynamic handling qualities, it will be harder, but in terms of systems it will be simpler. 

Sort of like the F-14. I've flown a lot of WWI/WWII things like rudder on wing drop was basically instinctive for me, while trying to figure out and fight the electronics in a modern fighter, I'm not even sure how to turn on the F/A-18C much less how to get it off the ground. 

Open door, get into airplane, close door.  Seat belt.  Key in slot.  Turn key until engines start (use the right pedal as needed, but this does have fuel injection so probably not).  Once the engine is on release the key.  Find a good station on the radio (classical/opera or jazz is best).  Right pedal to go, left pedal to stop.  The stick in the middle shifts gears, but there's no backup camera.  It is a child of the 80s after all.  Try not to exceed any posted speed limits.

I still haven't found the turn signal or wipers, though.

[Zabuzard]

Id say, as with many jets, it's easy to get into, but difficult to master.

Back in the days, a lot of things haven't been very fleshed out yet and a lot of stuff was still in the process of being refined for better usability. As a direct result, the cockpit panel layout appears a bit weird in some places and the responsibilities between Pilot and WSO are not always split well yet. Also, a lot of weapon delivery modes or systems are not very intuitive yet (compared to intuitive CCIP/CCRP symbology that we have nowadays).

It is easy to startup, easy to taxi, takeoff, fly around for fun and bring it back without exploding.

Doing that in a controlled way however, as required for combat or other things, is difficult. The control authority and responsiveness varies a lot depending on the situation you are in, leading to confusion and surprises to untrained pilots. You will have to learn how to read her feedback and what configurations you want to avoid.

General navigation is straightforward. You can set (up to 2) waypoints via coordinate entry and navigate there with your HSI. You also have a standard TACAN, ADF and VOR system for getting from A to B.

The radar doesnt have a lot of switches and modes, so it's easy to get started with. The challenge is interpreting the returns and dealing with its limitations of being easier to break in some situations.

Weapon delivery is a two sides journey. Some stuff is easy to use, such as Mavericks or a dive toss bombing on a TGP target.
The complex things are mostly secondary modes, such as manual bombing. You have a lot of options to choose from when it comes to dropping a bomb in different modes and each of them needs a slightly different setup and slightly different things to be entered in to the computer. Also, these modes require you to accurately fly a setup config (speed, altitude, angle) to be precise - which is difficult without assistance and not having a modern HUD that shows your values in plain sight.
It will be fun to learn, but in practice not a lot of users will use it on a daily base and instead rely on the simpler bread and butter methods.

The targeting pod is a challenge to use, because it requires a lot of coordination between Pilot and WSO. The WSO will frequently get lost, because (only god knows why) only the pilot has an indicator telling where the pod is looking at. The WSO has to tell the pilot when he wants to track something, so that the Pilot stops maneuvering (else the WSO will lose sight). Likewise, the Pilot has to warn the WSO before maneuvering, else the WSO will overcorrect and get lost.

In any case, it's a very fun plane to fly with a lot of things to discover :)

[throAU]

On 12/14/2023 at 3:09 AM, Kalasnkova74 said:

Harder, significantly. People used to 4th Generation tech and tactics will have to adapt to an iron sight, manually flown jet. Precision will be a factor of pilot skill at dropping bombs, not a setting on the MFD.

Air to air will be even tougher. Adapting from “match lift vector and PULL” tactics on 4th Gen aircraft to “manage energy and use the vertical” will be a gulf too large to bridge for some. I expect a small social media backlash after release of people accustomed to Flankers and Hornets declaring the Phantom “useless in a dogfight”. Especially when people depart controlled flight because they’ve spent their flight sim time flying computer controlled aircraft that never let them go out of control. 
 

 

I’m practicing with iron bombs, etc. in the f5 already.

[Gunfreak]

9 hours ago, throAU said:

I’m practicing with iron bombs, etc. in the f5 already.

From reading about the vientam war.

As a pilot your job is to hold the pipper on the target, keep the correct speed and then the GIB will tell you when to drop.

[Dragon1-1]

"Pickle, pull, both hands!"  Would be wonderful for Jester to do be able to do this. Of course, as a pilot it'll be your job to fly the parameters. You don't hold the pipper on target, though. You set up correct dive angle, speed and roll in, then the pipper should end up on the target. What the GIB can do is monitor your altitude and tell you when to pickle the bombs off. I don't know how much help would he be in determining whether you've rolled in correctly, though, seeing as he can't see much when looking straight forward. I suppose he would be able to compensate for wrong airspeed or dive angle somewhat (he does have instruments for that) by altering the altitude, but not for pipper alignment.

[Zeagle]

I hope she flies like the real thing.

 

[HWasp]

While older planes certainly need a bit more skill, learning and patience to operate, they can have a great advantage in this regard:

Usually here one switch does one thing, and even if there seems to be more stuff on the surface, there is less complexity altogether.

I have too many modules, and I often realize, after not flying a 4th gen for some time, that I can't remember the DMS left short + TMS down long + China hat forward + boat switch aft + blink twice + clap 3 times HOTAS command I would need for the mission... maybe it's just me.

I never forget, how to operate the MiG-21 or the F-1, all I need is usually 5 mins of aerobatics, to build back muscle memory. That's much more fun for me compared to relearning the HOTAS.

So, learning curve is steeper but useful knowledge is less perishable I think.

[throAU]

On 12/17/2023 at 12:38 AM, HWasp said:

While older planes certainly need a bit more skill, learning and patience to operate, they can have a great advantage in this regard:

Usually here one switch does one thing, and even if there seems to be more stuff on the surface, there is less complexity altogether.

I have too many modules, and I often realize, after not flying a 4th gen for some time, that I can't remember the DMS left short + TMS down long + China hat forward + boat switch aft + blink twice + clap 3 times HOTAS command I would need for the mission... maybe it's just me.

I never forget, how to operate the MiG-21 or the F-1, all I need is usually 5 mins of aerobatics, to build back muscle memory. That's much more fun for me compared to relearning the HOTAS.

So, learning curve is steeper but useful knowledge is less perishable I think.

 

Yup, and you can always do manual bombing in a 4th gen.  Also, if you know how to put yourself in position properly the CCIP pipper just confirms what you’ve already lined up…

[Pekins]

So what if its difficult, the most entertaining part is the learning process since the core game is <profanity>.

[G.J.S]

3 hours ago, Pekins said:

So what if its difficult, the most entertaining part is the learning process since the core game is <profanity>.

Really? Given that it’s free, the core sim is rather bloody good! 15 years of dedication in its current iteration, kept aloft by a band of very talented people, who unfortunately have to see posts like that which you proffer.

[diego999]

On 12/16/2023 at 1:38 PM, HWasp said:

While older planes certainly need a bit more skill, learning and patience to operate, they can have a great advantage in this regard:

Usually here one switch does one thing, and even if there seems to be more stuff on the surface, there is less complexity altogether.

I have too many modules, and I often realize, after not flying a 4th gen for some time, that I can't remember the DMS left short + TMS down long + China hat forward + boat switch aft + blink twice + clap 3 times HOTAS command I would need for the mission... maybe it's just me.

I never forget, how to operate the MiG-21 or the F-1, all I need is usually 5 mins of aerobatics, to build back muscle memory. That's much more fun for me compared to relearning the HOTAS.

So, learning curve is steeper but useful knowledge is less perishable I think.

 

My feelings exactly.

 

[addman]

On 12/16/2023 at 6:38 PM, HWasp said:

While older planes certainly need a bit more skill, learning and patience to operate, they can have a great advantage in this regard:

Usually here one switch does one thing, and even if there seems to be more stuff on the surface, there is less complexity altogether.

I have too many modules, and I often realize, after not flying a 4th gen for some time, that I can't remember the DMS left short + TMS down long + China hat forward + boat switch aft + blink twice + clap 3 times HOTAS command I would need for the mission... maybe it's just me.

I never forget, how to operate the MiG-21 or the F-1, all I need is usually 5 mins of aerobatics, to build back muscle memory. That's much more fun for me compared to relearning the HOTAS.

So, learning curve is steeper but useful knowledge is less perishable I think.

Yep, the MiG-21 has like a million switches and dials in the cockpit but they are THERE, you can see them, what they are doing etc. Return to it after 6 months or something, not a problem. Try the same with the F16 for example, not a chance.

[javelina1]

On 12/13/2023 at 1:01 PM, Gunfreak said:

I think if you've flown the F14, F5 or A4 it will seem familiar to some degree.

I think in systems operations it will feel quite like the tomcat.

I've been doing just this, flying the Turkey a lot.  Figuring it will help with learning the Rhino.

[Super-B]

I stepped away from flight sim games in 2009.  After seeing the trailer for the Phantom, I decided to dive back in.  My plan is to progress the way Phantom Phlyers did.  Train in the F-5, which to be honest is a single seat T-38, then learn the F-4

[Migparts]

after having flown the Mig 21 I imagine optimistically that the Phantom will be vaguely similar.