fixed FCR - difficulty acquiring targets - elevation cue seems backwards? TRACK ATTACHED

[[DE] T-Bone]

Possible state bug when switching the radar ELEV between AUTO and MANUEL:

- In AUTO mode, targets are detected and displayed.
- After switching to MAN and changing the ELEV, FCR no longer finds any targets
- Reset to AUTO -> Ping again -> No results
- Change again to MANUEL -> ELEV remains the same as before -> Targets are recognized again.

fcr_manual_range.trk

Edited December 21, 2023 by [RENEGADES] T-Bone

[ShuRugal]

Having a lot of difficulty getting the FCR to acquire targets.  I finally put an invisible apache in my mission to test with, and i found that I am only able to detect targets when two conditions are both met:

1: the helicopter must be high enough to see the entire target and the ground around it.  even a slight obstruction of the target's wheels/tracks prevents detection

2: the radar elevation must be in manual mode with the angle set as far UP as the scale indicates.

 

even when those two conditions are both met, target detection is unreliable.  I have a track attached showing first a great deal of no targets found, then when i finally do detect one with the FCR, it is only one, even though there are dozens of vehicles around it and within the scan zone.

fcr-weird.trk

Edited December 22, 2023 by ShuRugal

[BIGNEWY]

threads merged we are investigating

thanks

[Tepnox]

I would like to contribute my findings as well. While I am as pilot in clear sight of the target, the FCR does not detect the target - the target gets detected by the FCR when the TADS has visual sight. In that case the whole Apache is now visible by the enemy and this should not be the work case scenario of the FCR it suppose.

Changing manual elevation modes does not help either.

Tested on Syria map.

FCR-Issue.trk

[Hotdognz]

Glad I found this thread, im seeing the same issue, Apache needs to be fully exposed for the FCR to acquire targets, I have no track as others have reported it.

 

[303_Tees]

Hi same here

 

[RUBIX]

Hello all,

I think I found one of the issues relating to this problem. I set up a test mission with stationary targets on a hill at different elevations. I start the test from a hover and scan the hill with the FCR in Auto ELEV. This results in a decent return. Obviously it cannot see all the targets as they range from 10 degrees below the nose to 10 degrees above the nose. I then set the ELEV to Man and move the range to 10 degrees nose up. Scan and find just the higher targets. I then set the ELEV back to Auto. This shows a change on the ELEV Scale, but in reality it does not move it back from the Man position. Scan and again it only finds the higher targets. I further test this by setting ELEV back to Man and going to extreme upper limit. Scan and find nothing as expected. Set the ELEV back to Auto and Scan. Again find nothing.

TLDR. Going to ELEV Man and move the range. Set ELEV back to Auto, and although the ELEV Scale moves back, it does not actually move back from the Man position.

Track File Attached.

FCR Auto Elev Not Working.trk

[JabbyJabara]

I have replicated this as well

[LynxD]

I`ve noticed an FCR behavior that seems kinda weird. Helos that move towards you can only be picked at 4-1.5 km distance, moving away - 0-8km no problem. Target helo moving right to left - no problem. Target helo moving left to right - komplit stels, couldn`t be picked up at any distance.

 

ah-64_fcr.trk

[GCRev]

I can confirm this is still an issue on the latest patch. It's easy enough to work-around if you know that it's inverted, but hopefully this gets resolved soon. Seems like it's a just flipped sign in the display logic.

[336_TheAngryGamer]

This was reported as a bug a while back. A couple months maybe. It was acknowledged then. The radar beam is not coming from the FCR dome. It is coming from much lower. I think the TADS array may be the source but sometimes it seems like George is the source.  Sometimes if George can see the target, the radar can as well. But sometimes more altitude is needed to expose the nose mounted array. I was hoping it might be fixed with the Kiwoa. But after the original acknowledgement of the bug, it was never mentioned. Even in lists of known bugs. 

Edited July 23, 2024 by 336_TheAngryGamer
Typo

[Raptor9]

1 hour ago, 336_TheAngryGamer said:

It was acknowledged then. The radar beam is not coming from the FCR dome. It is coming from much lower.

As stated in the other thread, this is not true, so I don't know why this is still being repeated as if it is true or being claimed it has been acknowledged as such since I specifically said that it is not. So I will say it again; the FCR beam is coming from the mast, but the way the elevation control calculations are currently implemented it is leading to unintended behavior.

Long story short, due to the environment the AH-64D operates (extremely low altitudes), the calculations needed to ensure the FCR consistently scans a fixed range between 500-8000 meters had to be revisited to ensure the antenna angles for a given scan volume were properly calculated at various altitudes. The good news is, this has been fixed internally and we should expect to see the improved elevation control soon in a future public update.

And as a side note, the development of the DCS OH-58D by Polychop has no bearing on the DCS AH-64D by Eagle Dynamics. These are two separate projects with separate development teams, and the two aircraft are completely different in function.

[336_TheAngryGamer]

4 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

6 hours ago, 336_TheAngryGamer said:

 

As stated in the other thread, this is not true, so I don't know why this is still being repeated as if it is true or being claimed it has been acknowledged as such since I specifically said that it is not.

This is why. I discussed this with bignewy on discord. The next day, someone posted here they had heard the issue and tested it. In the post, ED responded saying it wasn't as simple as fixing the radar. It had something to do with how it interacts with the terrain or something to that effect. But admitted it was an issue. I do not know if the post was removed but it was there, acknowledged, and responded to. But never fixed. 

 

It was reported April 29 by TZeer. Replied to by Raptor 9, that's you, and then responded to by me and several others. So, it seems I am in fact correct and you admitted the issue. So why deny it now? I am confused. 

Edited July 23, 2024 by 336_TheAngryGamer
Added info including screen shot of previous mention of this issue.

[Raptor9]

19 minutes ago, 336_TheAngryGamer said:

So, it seems I am in fact correct and you admitted the issue. So why deny it now?

I am not denying there is an issue, you are falsely claiming the cause of the issue is the radar is emitted from the nose, and that I had acknowledged that it was the cause. Neither of which is correct.

In any case, this has become yet another debate about the debate itself, rather than the facts of the issue, which I have already stated multiple times. Believe me or not, it makes no difference, but please do not twist my words into a narrative that is not true.

[336_TheAngryGamer]

2 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

you are falsely claiming the cause of the issue is the radar is emitted from the nose,

Actually, I am stating that it does not come from the f.C.R dome. I am stating it comes much lower. I offered no definitive statement about the exact source.  If read correctly, it is perfectly clear.  The real point is the radar is wrong. 

[Raptor9]

Ok. 

[Hobel]

Am 23.7.2024 um 22:46 schrieb 336_TheAngryGamer:

Actually, I am stating that it does not come from the f.C.R dome. I am stating it comes much lower. I offered no definitive statement about the exact source.  If read correctly, it is perfectly clear.  The real point is the radar is wrong. 

why don't you post a track/video of it so that we can see your view.
in my test the beam is coming from the Dome.

[336_TheAngryGamer]

2 hours ago, Hobel said:

why don't you post a track/video of it so that we can see your view.

I am planning on retesting it. Busy this weekend. I am not trying to trash this game or the dev's. 

[TZeer]

On 7/25/2024 at 11:02 AM, Hobel said:

why don't you post a track/video of it so that we can see your view.
in my test the beam is coming from the Dome.

Plenty of tracks in this thread
 

Just out of curiosity, how do you, the beta testers, verify that the simulated radar beam originate from the actual dome, and not from a "lower" position on the helicopter model? Do you have access to some extra tools?

 

Anyway, looking forward to the fix

 

 

Edited July 28, 2024 by TZeer

[Hobel]

vor 21 Stunden schrieb TZeer:

Plenty of tracks in this thread
 

Just out of curiosity, how do you, the beta testers, verify that the simulated radar beam originate from the actual dome, and not from a "lower" position on the helicopter model? Do you have access to some extra tools?

 

Anyway, looking forward to the fix

 

 

 

okay i tested it again and i have to agree it seems like the radar is coming exactly from the tads
 

 

[key_stroked]

4 hours ago, Hobel said:

okay i tested it again and i have to agree it seems like the radar is coming exactly from the tads
 

 

Lol.
Looks like it's coming from the nose of the aircraft. And Raptor9 gave that guy hell for actually telling the truth. Well done ED.

[Raptor9]

2 hours ago, key_stroked said:

Looks like it's coming from the nose of the aircraft. And Raptor9 gave that guy hell for actually telling the truth. Well done ED.

I didn't give anyone any hell, I told him he was stating incorrect information, and it still is incorrect.

Hobel, and anyone else making this claim, are mistaken. The mathematical calculations that determine when a target is visible to the radome need corrections (and have been corrected internally for a future patch). These calculations are based on the aircraft height over terrain and the antenna elevation setting. The emissions are not coming from the nose, but it is a happy coincidence that the incorrect calculations are manifesting to give the appearance of this.

Hobel does not have access to the debug tools the devs use to determine this. But I have personally seen and tested these things. Is there an issue with the elevation control calculations? Yes, I have said this already multiple times in multiple threads. But the cause is not "the radar is coming from the nose". I'm not going to show you the trignometry that is involved, since it wouldn't mean much anyway, so I figured I would break it down as best I could to inform to you all the real cause.

You all can tell yourselves whatever you want or make me out to be the villian for telling you what is actually going on under the hood. I don't care; and it's threads like this that make me question why I bother interacting with or communicating with the players when this is the response. It is not my job to do so, but I try to be as transparent as I can be to keep players informed. Perhaps it isn't worth the effort.

[key_stroked]

25 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

I didn't give anyone any hell, I told him he was stating incorrect information, and it still is incorrect.

Hobel, and anyone else making this claim, are mistaken. The mathematical calculations that determine when a target is visible to the radome need corrections (and have been corrected internally for a future patch). These calculations are based on the aircraft height over terrain and the antenna elevation setting. The emissions are not coming from the nose, but it is a happy coincidence that the incorrect calculations are manifesting to give the appearance of this.

Hobel does not have access to the debug tools the devs use to determine this. But I have personally seen and tested these things. Is there an issue with the elevation control calculations? Yes, I have said this already multiple times in multiple threads. But the cause is not "the radar is coming from the nose". I'm not going to show you the trignometry that is involved, since it wouldn't mean much anyway, so I figured I would break it down as best I could to inform to you all the real cause.

You all can tell yourselves whatever you want or make me out to be the villian for telling you what is actually going on under the hood. I don't care; and it's threads like this that make me question why I bother interacting with or communicating with the players when this is the response. It is not my job to do so, but I try to be as transparent as I can be to keep players informed. Perhaps it isn't worth the effort.

If it's based on the height of the aircraft (and an antenna setting that Hobel didn't change during his test video), then why does the radar pick up the target through the gap in the buildings?
If it's based on just height, he shouldn't have been able to make contact unless he was above the height of the building roof before it slants down and creates that gap. Clearly the building is obstructing contact from where the nose is situated.

[Shadok]

56 minutes ago, key_stroked said:

If it's based on the height of the aircraft (and an antenna setting that Hobel didn't change during his test video), then why does the radar pick up the target through the gap in the buildings?

It's definitely a global conspiracy! Life's too hard! :D

[TZeer]

Quote

The mathematical calculations that determine when a target is visible to the radome need corrections (and have been corrected internally for a future patch). These calculations are based on the aircraft height over terrain and the antenna elevation setting.

I think why this has come up as a discussion time and time again, has just been due to some information being "lost in translation".

Raptor gave an answer some time ago that it was due to calculations for the radar elevation setting. Which is correct.

At that time I didn't quite understand why the calculation of the elevation setting should have anything to do with losing ability to find targets with the radar if the TADS didn't have a LOS. Anyway, they had control, Raptor replied that it was known and being worked on. Could not ask for more 

 

But now Raptor just dropped a bit extra info in this short explanation:
 

Quote

The mathematical calculations that determine when a target is visible to the radome.....

These calculations are based on the aircraft height over terrain and the antenna elevation setting.

 

So if those two factors are intermingled in the code that determines when the radome sees a target, it makes perfect sense.

I'm just taking a wild guess here, but I guess the height over terrain "value" that was used in the code, did not take into account that the radome was positioned higher than the actual airframe/reference point.

Example: Altimeter in whatever airframe has 0 feet when wheels are on ground. But the Longbow Radar is actually roughly 16 feet above ground.
If they have used a value that was already in the code from some other part in the coding, not uncommon in coding by the way. And not taken into account that the radome is X feet higher on the airframe compared to whatever value they might have used from some other place, it explains everything.

- The issue is tied to the radar elevation calculation that Raptor mentioned earlier, and did so multiple times. So he is 100% correct in his earlier statements.

- But it also explains why the radar lose lock when we lose TADS LOS. If the reference point used in the current code is roughly at the same height as the TADS on the chopper, it will lead to a loss of targetlock roughly at the same time as the TADS lose LOS.

 

There are multiple places they can have gotten a height value to use in the code that would have given wrong calculations:

- Altimeter
- George AI coding for simulating LOS via TADS etc
- " Zero" point on the airframe ( X, Y axis on the 3d model)


@Raptor9 We as a community really appreciate the time and energy you sacrifice to help, guide and support this product. I can only guess how frustrating it can bee trying to educate some of us "sofa pilots", specifically when some of us are trying to tell you how the machine works, when you actually have hundreds of hours in the real thing.