Elevation Indicator FCR?

[TZeer]

Is there any indication to tell me where I am seeking with the FCR in the vertical plane?

Performance for me is very underwhelming.

Elevation differences from where I am and where the targets are is giving me alot of troubles aquiring targets.

I can be on a "flat" dessert area and get no locks. Elevation difference can be 300 feet (targets higher) over 3km. So targets are in a slight upward slope.

Changing to manual sometimes get the targets on my scope. But not always.

So while the FCR is the highest mounted sensor on the Apache, and should teoretically have the best conditions to get a picture of the battlefield. It's struggling to give me a lock on targets 3km infront of me.

George sees them, I can see them with my own eyes. But the radar is completely blind

So the scan, target and proritize within 30 seconds is only applicable IF you are able to get a good scan in the first place

Ony tips out there?

What does the markers in the elevation option mean? I guess it's scan height relative to the Apache. But how much and at what range? How does the auto option work? What's the limitations?

 

 

[admiki]

Default position is look down (I'm not sure how much, I think it's around 3 degs down)

If you are scanning for targets at your level or higher, you need to perform sweep at every elevation

[Floyd1212]

What does the AUTO setting do?

And could there be a situation where you are on a slight hill looking down and targets at 4km need one setting to see, and targets at 8km need a higher "step" in elevation to see?

Edited December 22, 2023 by Floyd1212

[NeedzWD40]

Under the AUTO setting, the scan area is dictated by the aircraft's radar altimeter. It's comparable to the automatic setting for weapons, so consider that with it in place. The elevation scale is represented in ~6 degree increments, with the default being -6 downward. The pilot can only use the manual elevation arrows but the gunner can use the manual tracker up/down to do more fine control of the elevation.

Thus far the best tip I can offer is if it's not detecting targets, either engage with TADS or reposition from a different angle. In testing, I've found that repositioning (where possible) from a different direction and angle can result in finding targets, indicating that the original position was simply not good for the FCR.

Edited December 22, 2023 by NeedzWD40

[FalcoGer]

When in MANUAL elevation control, the MAN TRK on the TEDAC can be used for antenna elevation (if TADS power ON and FCR is selected sight), as can the arrows on the FCR screen.

AUTO uses the aircraft's radar altitude to point the radar. When in AUTO mode, the radar elevation is supposed to be such, that the minimum range the radar scans at is 500m. This assumes a ground plane at the radar elevation of the aircraft. So when sitting on a hill and looking down into a valley, the minimum range will be pushed further away and the radar may scan above targets if they are too close.

In ATM (Air Target Mode), elevation control is always manual and defaults to 3° up.

In TPM (Terrain Profile Mode), the elevation is always static but can be selected between near and far modes where the elevation is static at -0.5° for FAR, which provides early warnings out to 2500m for high terrain and obstacles and -3° for NEAR for warnings out to 1000m. The sector scan size in TPM is dependent on air speed. For 0-55kt is is 180°. Down to and above 45 once triggered by 55kt it's 90° and fixed to center line.

I spent a whole 30 seconds to make this helpful illustration.

Edited December 23, 2023 by FalcoGer

[hotrod525]

1 hour ago, FalcoGer said:

 

Hey hey hey ! Poorly made drawing are my thing ! find your own bruh !  [Joking]

[poochies]

20 hours ago, NeedzWD40 said:

Under the AUTO setting, the scan area is dictated by the aircraft's radar altimeter. It's comparable to the automatic setting for weapons, so consider that with it in place. The elevation scale is represented in ~6 degree increments, with the default being -6 downward. The pilot can only use the manual elevation arrows but the gunner can use the manual tracker up/down to do more fine control of the elevation.

Thus far the best tip I can offer is if it's not detecting targets, either engage with TADS or reposition from a different angle. In testing, I've found that repositioning (where possible) from a different direction and angle can result in finding targets, indicating that the original position was simply not good for the FCR.

 

I 'll try this had a 2s6  on a hill 4km in front of me FCr would not pick it up as it was higher than me if 6 deg down is default i'll try to aim it up a bit see if it helps ,  i even snuck in to 3.5 km out but finally took missile in the face .....thx for the info !

[NineLine]

Supply a track so we can take a look, thanks!

[hannibal]

5 hours ago, FalcoGer said:

When in MANUAL elevation control, the MAN TRK on the TEDAC can be used for antenna elevation (if TADS power ON and FCR is selected sight), as can the arrows on the FCR screen.

AUTO uses the aircraft's radar altitude to point the radar. When in AUTO mode, the radar elevation is supposed to be such, that the minimum range the radar scans at is 500m. This assumes a ground plane at the radar elevation of the aircraft. So when sitting on a hill and looking down into a valley, the minimum range will be pushed further away and the radar may scan above targets if they are too close.

In ATM (Air Target Mode), elevation control is always manual and defaults to 3° up.

In TPM (Terrain Profile Mode), the elevation is always static but can be selected between near and far modes where the elevation is static at -0.5° for FAR, which provides early warnings out to 2500m for high terrain and obstacles and -3° for NEAR for warnings out to 1000m. The sector scan size in TPM is dependent on air speed. For 0-55kt is is 180°. Down to and above 45 once triggered by 55kt it's 90° and fixed to center line.

I spent a whole 30 seconds to make this helpful illustration.

 

 

i didnt know know the man trk slew control also did elevation ..... GOOOOOOD TO KNOWWWWW

[FalcoGer]

On 12/22/2023 at 10:58 AM, TZeer said:

Is there any indication to tell me where I am seeking with the FCR in the vertical plane?

Bottom left on the FCR page.
It looks like this

Where the large dash indicates -6.25°. The dash above is 0° (as indicated in the image above). Each dash is spaced 6.25° steps. Top and bottom are 25° and -25° respectively. So the steps for GTM and RMAP are 25, 18.75, 12.5, 6.25, 0, -6.25 (default), -12.5, -18.75, -25.

In ATM this is different. In ATM the default is +3° and each step is 5°. so the steps are 23, 18, 13, 8, 3 (default), -2, -7, -12 in ATM.

As stated above, for TPM you can't set the elevation. It's a static -0.5° or -3° for a FAR and NEAR setting.

[TZeer]

6 hours ago, FalcoGer said:

When in MANUAL elevation control, the MAN TRK on the TEDAC can be used for antenna elevation (if TADS power ON and FCR is selected sight), as can the arrows on the FCR screen.

AUTO uses the aircraft's radar altitude to point the radar. When in AUTO mode, the radar elevation is supposed to be such, that the minimum range the radar scans at is 500m. This assumes a ground plane at the radar elevation of the aircraft. So when sitting on a hill and looking down into a valley, the minimum range will be pushed further away and the radar may scan above targets if they are too close.

Thank you for the informative post!

So in an upsloping terrain there is a high chance of scanning dirt, instead of actual targets. While in a downsloping terrain higher chance of scanning air, and going over the targets. Now I'm assuming minimum range is 500m infront of the Apache, relative to the height of the Apache above ground.

Made a small graphic to illustrate the "issue".

 

[FalcoGer]

I don't actually know the vertical angle of the scanned area. Can anyone provide some insight? Also is the elevation indicator center of beam or one of the edges?

12 minutes ago, TZeer said:

Made a small graphic to illustrate the "issue".

Also I think my graphic is more "artzy" and has more character. [JK]

Also given that the radar can actually measure distance to terrain, and is able to make a 3d map of it's environment, I wonder why an elevation control is needed at all, or why auto is so rudimentary, when the radar can just find it's own best settings by actually looking at the terrain outside instead of relying on simplistic assumptions that are often not true.

Edited December 23, 2023 by FalcoGer

[TZeer]

I agree. Such a hightech equipment, and all other kind of systems integrated, but no consideration to the terrain infront of the apache when deciding scanelevation in automatic mode.

[admiki]

There is an universal saying that states that logic ends where military thinking starts.

[Raptor9]

16 hours ago, FalcoGer said:

Also given that the radar can actually measure distance to terrain, and is able to make a 3d map of it's environment, I wonder why an elevation control is needed at all, or why auto is so rudimentary, when the radar can just find it's own best settings by actually looking at the terrain outside instead of relying on simplistic assumptions that are often not true.

Because terrain possibilities would preclude such a process for the same reasons that AUTO doesn't work in every scenario, and the FCR would have no way of knowing what the terrain looks like prior to scanning.

As it is, having a crew that is properly trained for when to use each mode is much more effective than having the FCR itself try to figure it out and make wrong assumptions. Aerospace engineers had years to figure out the best design for the radar system that was being developed for the time, they didn't do it in a few days.

[FalcoGer]

@Raptor9

Should the radar elevation indicator be updated when used in AUTO mode? because it doesn't for me, no matter what altitude I'm flying at.

Also what does AUTO elevation do when the radar altimeter is not available, for example when damaged, turned off or when flying too high?

Edited January 18, 2024 by FalcoGer