For people who have freezing in MT every 5 seconds

[SFJackBauer]

Do you run your PC for long? I leave my PC on for extended periods of time due to reasons, and I found that if I run DCS MT after my computer has been on for a long time, it gains that every-5-second freeze. However after I restart my PC, it runs buttery smooth, until my computer hits a certain number of hours on (I haven't spend time figuring out how long), and then the freezes come back again. The effect is extremely striking for me as it is the only thing that clears the stutters, and it never fails.

I figure that the people who don't have those freezes may just turn on their PCs to play DCS and shut it down afterwards.

Windows 11 here, 13900k 3080ti 64GB DDR4 3200. I have turned off hyperthreading and virtualization in BIOS.

[speed-of-heat]

I run my computer morning til night, nothing like that seen here. Are your temperatures OK?

 

[Nevyn]

My PC rarely gets switched off or restarted, I don't experience the freezing issue.

[silverdevil]

9 hours ago, SFJackBauer said:

Do you run your PC for long? I leave my PC on for extended periods of time due to reasons, and I found that if I run DCS MT after my computer has been on for a long time, it gains that every-5-second freeze. However after I restart my PC, it runs buttery smooth, until my computer hits a certain number of hours on (I haven't spend time figuring out how long), and then the freezes come back again. The effect is extremely striking for me as it is the only thing that clears the stutters, and it never fails.

I figure that the people who don't have those freezes may just turn on their PCs to play DCS and shut it down afterwards.

Windows 11 here, 13900k 3080ti 64GB DDR4 3200. I have turned off hyperthreading and virtualization in BIOS.

i also do not have an issue. my guess is that something other than DCS is gradually using resources and do not release like they should. dumb question but does the issue improve if you do a restart? also look into FAST BOOT option in windows. this may be affecting you. from the beginning of windows it has been commonly known that windows needs a restart once in a while for best performance.

fast boot

https://www.windowscentral.com/how-disable-windows-10-fast-startup

[SFJackBauer]

39 minutes ago, silverdevil said:

i also do not have an issue

Then maybe you are not the target of this thread. Many have this issue and nobody has able to figure out why it happens so far.

40 minutes ago, silverdevil said:

my guess is that something other than DCS is gradually using resources and do not release like they should

Restarting DCS does not fix it - obviously that is one of the first things I've ever tried. As I said in the OP, after a windows reboot DCS runs fine for hours. Only after the computer has been on for a while DCS starts showing freezes.

ALSO this behavior does not show up in any other application, including heavy games like MSFS, Cyberpunk, Squad, ARMA3, Tarkov etc etc.

41 minutes ago, silverdevil said:

does the issue improve if you do a restart?

Thats... exactly what I wrote in the OP.

41 minutes ago, silverdevil said:

from the beginning of windows it has been commonly known that windows needs a restart once in a while for best performance.

Thank you for your advice. I run Windows for 20+ years as a software developer. I don't have to "restart for best performance" once in a while for anything else other than DCS. Granted, I don't install crap as most people do, and keep the number of apps and background running services to a minimal.

 

 

10 hours ago, speed-of-heat said:

Are your temperatures OK?

Trust me, I've checked all the basics.

My gut feeling is that is something related to how DCS uses the computer clock. Timing is very important on graphically intensive apps like DCS - when I say clock, I mean APIs like https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/profileapi/nf-profileapi-queryperformancecounter. But who knows what it may be, only the devs can help pinpoint it.

I also forgot to mention that when the freezes start, I see more and more these messages in DCS log:

2023-12-26 12:45:52.005 WARNING WORLD (Main): ModelTimeQuantizer: ANTIFREEZE ENABLED

[silverdevil]

13 minutes ago, SFJackBauer said:

I run Windows for 20+ years

i started IT in 1989 so i am not without experience. i was only offering advice since i thought that is what you needed. but now that i know you have 20+ years, you should know better and can handle it yourself. and i meant restart windows not DCS.

17 minutes ago, SFJackBauer said:

ALSO this behavior does not show up in any other application, including heavy games like MSFS, Cyberpunk, Squad, ARMA3, Tarkov etc etc.

this is a common claim in these forums and i made this statement before i knew how special DCS is. it really has no relevance. its comparing watermelons to whales.

[Hiob]

OP, when you have the necessary experience and knowledge, you might wanna check the services running, task manager, event viewer and task scheduler for clues. Because it is certainly not normal that windows behavior changes when sitting in idle for hours at a time. (unless some hardware issues surface due to heat saturation).

[SFJackBauer]

11 minutes ago, Hiob said:

OP, when you have the necessary experience and knowledge, you might wanna check the services running, task manager, event viewer and task scheduler for clues. Because it is certainly not normal that windows behavior changes when sitting in idle for hours at a time. (unless some hardware issues surface due to heat saturation).

Who said its Windows thats changing its behavior? Its DCS that is doing so...

[SFJackBauer]

49 minutes ago, silverdevil said:

i started IT in 1989 so i am not without experience. i was only offering advice since i thought that is what you needed. but now that i know you have 20+ years, you should know better and can handle it yourself. and i meant restart windows not DCS.

1 hour ago, SFJackBauer said:

I can handle myself in the applications I write. Do you mean I should be debugging DCS with gdb? No, that is for the devs. I am here as a customer to report what I am seeing, thats all.

50 minutes ago, silverdevil said:

this is a common claim in these forums and i made this statement before i knew how special DCS is. it really has no relevance. its comparing watermelons to whales.

It has relevance. Bytes are bytes in the end. However people so far have either not read what I wrote or offered surface-level advice, which is welcome but ones that I have already tried. And saying "you should restart your PC every 12 hours" is not useful advice in my case, nor in any case.

[Hiob]

15 minutes ago, SFJackBauer said:

Who said its Windows thats changing its behavior? Its DCS that is doing so...

what? how would DCS change it's behavior unless there was any change in windows? 

Either I missed something or this is completely nonsensical.

[SFJackBauer]

3 minutes ago, Hiob said:

what? how would DCS change it's behavior unless there was any change in windows? 

Either I missed something or this is completely nonsensical.

Then you are as surprised as me for this behavior. Let me explain again:

- Lets say I just turn on my computer now. I start DCS, go into any single player/free flight mission. It runs buttery smooth, no hiccups other than the usual while loading the terrain around you.

- I fly DCS for an hour, I close it. I keep working on other stuff, go to sleep, leave my computer running overnight etc. Next day, I boot DCS, same mission, it gives small freezes/stuttering every couple of seconds, like other people have reported.

- I restart my PC. Boot DCS again, it runs smooth again.

In the meantime, I can run any of the other applications I listed before, and they do not present any performance issues out of the ordinary. Even if my PC has been running for multiple days.

Also this only manifests in MT. I started using MT because of 2.9, before I was running ST only. Immediately I had issues with stuttering, so ED personell on Discord asked me to turn off virtualization in BIOS (which I did, even though I need virtualization for other tasks, and had it on since... ever). This solved the stuttering happening immediately on running DCS, but now what I see is that it comes back as I described... and I have no clue why.

[speed-of-heat]

1 hour ago, SFJackBauer said:

 

My gut feeling is that is something related to how DCS uses the computer clock. Timing is very important on graphically intensive apps like DCS - when I say clock, I mean APIs like https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/profileapi/nf-profileapi-queryperformancecounter. But who knows what it may be, only the devs can help pinpoint it.

I also forgot to mention that when the freezes start, I see more and more these messages in DCS log:

2023-12-26 12:45:52.005 WARNING WORLD (Main): ModelTimeQuantizer: ANTIFREEZE ENABLED

I would post your logs and add a track, that will mean people who can help you aren't just stabbing in the dark, i have the same message in my logs and no time based freezes

so i dont think its that in isolation 

[SFJackBauer]

Ok so here are two videos for the non-believers of this thread:

First one I took today after my computer was running for 34 hours according to Task Manager. I closed everything on the PC, including Steam, TrackIR, GHub, Discord, Voicemeeter, even stopped Windows Audio services (which is why the first video doesn't have sound). I booted up DCS and went straight into F-16 ready on ramp, and this is what I see:

 

Second video, this is what I see after restarting my PC. Didn't touched anything else, it autostarts steam, GHub and Voicemeeter but I left all these usual apps running in the background (as I usually do) and its smooth as butter.

dcs log first video.logdcs log second video.log

Attached are DCS logs for both videos as well.

So what @Hiob is this nonsensical?

[Hiob]

I never doubted the effects. I dismissed your conclusion. Whatever changed between situation A and B, is in windows and not in DCS. So I suggested you figure out what windows does in that time.

[speed-of-heat]

A few ideas

-Try increasing your page file, it's currently set to 4gb, set it to 32gb min and 64gb max, you have the same amount of ram as me but less vram,  I hope that it's on a fast ssd

- make sure that hotplug is disabled

-  make sure you haven't got anything in your export.lua file in your saved games a number of add ins have caused grief in the past (winwing, tacview, and exports of control status/mfd's) to things like streamdeck and others...

Edited December 27, 2023 by speed-of-heat

[Insonia]

If system only stutters periodicly after a few hours, I may suggest looking into power management, temperature, and potential overheating and throttling. And DId you have tried disable core parking? DId you have tried disable DCS hotplug support?

 Windows Performance Toolkit | Microsoft Learn

Try establishing your performance degradation or spikes with any process and hardware usage.

Try xperf tracing those processes and try to find out which module, drivers or APIs.. that has unusual delays.

for example, those 2 are known for create periodic stutter as well :

Spoiler

Malformed USB sound card/DAC causes stuttering( including DCS(periodic stutter via hotplug scanning) and games that have dinput controller support ), utilize WPA trace down to the causes: 

USB device (re)connecting freezing the screen (stuttering) - PC Hardware and Related Software - ED Forums (dcs.world) (USB audio devices√)

c++ - DirectInput8 EnumDevices sometimes painfully slow - Stack Overflow

But it is unfixable, avoid those USB sound devices.. disable hotplug in DCS may help, but in my case my USB DAC is useable/freeze the windows in all condition whenever sound deivce plug into USB , i have to switch to toslink.

Spoiler

Dashost.exe and Windows discovery functions creates unusual periodic freeze and Spikes because weird home smart devices, narrow down via WIreshark capture the net traffic: 

[INVESTIGATING]Spike lag caused by internet network, now what? - Game Performance Bugs - ED Forums (dcs.world)

RTX 3090 stutter and bizarre fix (DASHOST.exe, android TV) | TechPowerUp Forums

If there is something to do with DX11 and graphics card, GPUview is also quite handy. 

A rare case about MB / PSU unable to keep up with the power supply after some time:

Spoiler

etc..

With something like Windows ADK , API monitor, netmon etc.. and some knowledge and experience about the windows kernals and debugging, you may eventually narrow down and pinpoint the issue.

Most of people in DCS users are just have little issue with E-cores and power management(parking)

the rare causes those stutters are various and difficult to troubleshoot if you dont understand windows shenanigans.

it's complicated.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Insonia

[SFJackBauer]

Tried core parking. No difference.

Hot plug is already disabled. Made no difference anyway.

Thermals are all good (why would termals make a difference after a reboot anyway)

Power management is good. I can run any other game I listed before for hours and I have no issues. This PC I built last year, been running without hitches, bluescreens etc.

Page file is not an issue, its on a SSD, set to auto and my RAM never maxes out in Caucasus in the F-16 in a free flight mission after a freshly booted DCS session. And I see no abnormal disk activity during these freezes that are on video.

Tried disabling everything in Export.lua, didn't made a difference.

Counterpoint to all of this is that after a restart DCS runs smoothly. With Export.lua. With the pagefile as it is. Without messing with core parking. 

All the cookie-cutter answers here are targeted at people that have not tested all that stuff before, and I would not open a thread before that.

59 minutes ago, Insonia said:

With something like Windows ADK , API monitor, netmon etc.. and some knowledge and experience about the windows kernals and debugging, you may eventually narrow down and pinpoint the issue.

So to run DCS well I have to bust out every debugging tool known in the face of the earth? I don't know why the community accepts these things.

Honestly this all feels like a waste of time. I'll probably open a ticket directly with ED and go from there. Or not... I just have to reboot every 12 hours and be conformed with that as a solution it seems.

I bet next thing people will ask me is to delete fxo and metashader folders.

[Hiob]

Dial it down a bit, would you? We‘re are trying to help. Sorry if the „cookie cutter“ suggestions are below you.

The community doesn’t except anything (obviously), but parts of the community try to dig to the core of the issue in an effort to help.

[Sile]

@SFJackBauer What's wrong with you, people are trying to help you.

My god then do the reboot before starting DCS. Could be worse. 
Don't see why this should be the fault of DCS anyway.

[SFJackBauer]

20 minutes ago, Sile said:

@SFJackBauer What's wrong with you, people are trying to help you.

My god then do the reboot before starting DCS. Could be worse. 

There is nothing wrong. Don't read into what I wrote anything more than what I wrote. I didn't offend anybody, so don't try to act like I did. I just stated that I know the basics, already tried the basics and thats it. So this is one more post that contributes nothing to the subject in question, just deflects away from it.

What is also frustrating is that people don't read what I wrote before replying to it. But thats the nature of the beast.

24 minutes ago, Sile said:

Don't see why this should be the fault of DCS anyway.

This is what frustrates me. Instead of fighting the problem, you are fighting me in defense of DCS.

[Insonia]

I bring this up. Not because user should accept this. It's ok if you unable help the cause. after all you are helping yourself at the end.  if people can provide accurate and useful details could be extra helpful.  not arguing.  I just show how to do properly for the sake if it.

The case I posted most are Microsoft issue. Those issue exist and trouble many developers for over a decade. Because it's rare and only impact very small user base and very specific softwares. MS never fix them. They probably never know. Game dev may came along with "workaround". Some just impossible to fix. Sometimes rare issues on certain hardware could took months or years until finally gathering enough info.  dev in general can only fix the problem in their product when they can reproduce.  And If it's too rare and minority, it will be ignored.
keep in mind dcs is very small community but with endless amount of system configurations impossible to cover all of them. I don't have stutters. Most user base did not suffer this.
From what I observed if mainstream solution didn't apply to those users. Rest of the case, every one is different and although most of time just user error and windows stuff. If you are lucky as part majority of those minorities. Then you may get fix. Or it just singular case you may never know.

So good luck.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Insonia

[SFJackBauer]

23 minutes ago, Insonia said:

I bring this up. Not because user should accept this. It's ok if you unable help the cause. after all you are helping yourself at the end.  if people can provide accurate and useful details could be extra helpful.  not arguing.  I just show how to do properly for the sake if it.

The case I posted most are Microsoft issue. Those issue exist and trouble many developers for over a decade. Because it's rare and only impact very small user base and very specific softwares. MS never fix them. They probably never know. Game dev may came along with "workaround". Some just impossible to fix. Sometimes rare issues on certain hardware could took months or years until finally gathering enough info.  dev in general can only fix the problem in their product when they can reproduce.  And If it's too rare and minority, it will be ignored.
keep in mind dcs is very small community but with endless amount of system configurations impossible to cover all of them. I don't have stutters. Most user base did not suffer this.
From what I observed if mainstream solution didn't apply to those users. Rest of the case, every one is different and although most of time just user error and windows stuff. If you are lucky as part majority of those minorities. Then you may get fix. Or it just singular case you may never know.

So good luck.

 

Thank you, I appreciate your response, you seem to be a thoughtful person. Yes I understand and agree with all you wrote there. And I am happy for the people who don't have any issues, but I ask you to put yourself on the position of the person that have tried all the solutions out there and nothing worked.

25 minutes ago, Insonia said:

dev in general can only fix the problem in their product when they can reproduce

100%. But here is the thing - they can reproduce the problem in my machine with 100% certainty. In my work as a professional developer, I would never just cross my arms for a customer and say "well, I can't reproduce on my machine, so you are out of luck"... I would go out of my way to find and fix the problem, because they are paying customers. They could offer a debug build with extra logs and profiling. But am I willing to spend my limited time with DCS debugging that deeply? I've been flying DCS since the day it launched 15 years ago. I've seen things... What I don't readily accept is blame the user immediately without reasons. In my case, I already changed my system substantially to avoid stutters (by turning off virtualization) which should not have been needed in a normal situation. And frustrates me to see that the community accepts these "workarounds" as final.

[Pillowcat]

5 hours ago, SFJackBauer said:

I'll probably open a ticket directly with ED

How to do it? Lastly I tried to report directly to supports, they told me to post to the forum as no other way.

UPD:

Spoiler

«Hello, Thank you for contacting DCS World support. DCS Open Beta is currently in public testing and may contain various bugs and errors. Please write about the problem on our forum and testers will check it. Thank you for understanding.»

Probably fresh restarted system is yet working with empty RAM standby memory for caching terrain data, after time pass standby memory full of anything else and dcs begin to call data from store drive hardware, which whatever fast it is , always thousands time slower than reading RAM. When hundred miles away tank rolling other the hill, it always has to call checks of ground piece underneath.

To eliminate probability of such, you can try to force windows to re-cache map files by executing from powershell (after loading to the cockpit in dcs with freezing):

Measure-Command { Get-Childitem -path "C:\Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World\Mods\terrains\Caucasus\" -recurse | Get-FileHash -Algorithm MD5 | Out-Default }

^{Of course, the path to the files must be corrected to yours}

But may be it's not a real thing, just something i'd digup during investigation of my freezes-stuttering hell, and it didn't helps me, but in my case no correlation with time after rebooting.

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Pillowcat

[SharpeXB]

4 hours ago, SFJackBauer said:

Counterpoint to all of this is that after a restart DCS runs smoothly.

Congratulations you solved the problem!  Is there really a need to leave your PC running continually? 

On 12/25/2023 at 9:59 PM, SFJackBauer said:

I figure that the people who don't have those freezes may just turn on their PCs to play DCS and shut it down afterwards

That’s not normal?

Although finding the culprit here might help others with stuttering. How many people with this trouble simply don’t ever shut their machine down?

[Nevyn]

2 hours ago, SFJackBauer said:

And frustrates me to see that the community accepts these "workarounds" as final.

You and me both.