When were F-4E's first equipped with the ALR-46 RWR?

[ponys123]

I'm wondering how fitting this system is for Vietnam-era scenarios. Having a microprocessor-equipped RWR on board seems like the kind of capability that breaks most of the early 70s scenarios.

[silverdevil]

14 minutes ago, ponys123 said:

I'm wondering how fitting this system is for Vietnam-era scenarios. Having a microprocessor-equipped RWR on board seems like the kind of capability that breaks most of the early 70s scenarios.

i believe the F-4 did not receive the 46 until after late vietnam. the F-4 had the 25 36 for most of its deployment. Spring 1973 the F-4E started receiving. not much on the net about dates. i could be wrong.

Edited January 28 by silverdevil

[SgtPappy]

9 hours ago, ponys123 said:

I'm wondering how fitting this system is for Vietnam-era scenarios. Having a microprocessor-equipped RWR on board seems like the kind of capability that breaks most of the early 70s scenarios.

Correct, it doesn't precisely match the strobe display (APR-36/37) on most F-4E's during the Vietnam War.

However to my understanding, the ALR-46 was around during this time, just being built for Iran's FY1971  block 56 jets (for which the ALR-46 was standard) and for some of the USAF's FY1972 jets post Rivet Haste.

So it's not reflective of the battles of the time in which the F-4 participated but it still fits for the era.

[303_Kermit]

The truth is that from Vietnam Era we have in DCS ... nothing.
F-4B/C/D
F-105
F-100
F-104
A-1
A-4 B (one VA)/C/E/F
A-7
A-5
A-6
E-121
MiG-21 F-13/PF/FL/MF
MiG-19S (F-6)
MiG-17F

so... we have to use a bit imagination anyway...

Edited January 29 by 303_Kermit

[divinee]

29 minutes ago, 303_Kermit said:

The truth is that from Vietnam Era we have in DCS ... nothing.
F-4B/C/D
F-105
F-100
F-104
A-1
A-4 B (one VA)/C/E/F
A-7
A-5
A-6
E-121
MiG-21 F-13/PF/FL/MF
MiG-19S (F-6)
MiG-17F

so... we have to use a bit imagination anyway...

 

You are missing F-4J and very early E.

Edit: and F-5, F-8

Edited January 29 by divinee

[Gunfreak]

1 hour ago, 303_Kermit said:

The truth is that from Vietnam Era we have in DCS ... nothing.
F-4B/C/D
F-105
F-100
F-104
A-1
A-4 B (one VA)/C/E/F
A-7
A-5
A-6
E-121
MiG-21 F-13/PF/FL/MF
MiG-19S (F-6)
MiG-17F

so... we have to use a bit imagination anyway...

 

The upcoming F100 should be Vietnam era.

But other than that we'll have to close one eye and pretend.

I mean I've made missions based on early 80s with our 2007 F16C.

Which is way way off compared to what the F4E Will be vs its vientam siblings. While you can't downgrade radars or change flight modeling. You can do a lot by using the correct period weapons (something we can do in most of the aircraft we have in DCS)

[303_Kermit]

50 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

The upcoming F100 should be Vietnam era.

But other than that we'll have to close one eye and pretend.

I mean I've made missions based on early 80s with our 2007 F16C.

Which is way way off compared to what the F4E Will be vs its vientam siblings. While you can't downgrade radars or change flight modeling. You can do a lot by using the correct period weapons (something we can do in most of the aircraft we have in DCS)

Exactly. DCS F-4E will have more advantage over F-6 (MiG-19S), but MiG-21bis is clearly far superior compared to F-13, PF, FL, and even MF.

[Dragon1-1]

The MiG-17F, which was one of the two main opponents for the F-4 in Vietnam, is pretty far along and will hopefully come out this year. HB has also mentioned the very early F-4E as a possibility. That one was basically a late D with a gun, so there's that.

Also, we've got the A-1 coming, although it's still in early stages. A-7 is coming (it's further along than the F-8, actually), and that's a proper Vietnam aircraft. The A-6 will eventually come. We'll be getting the F-104, too. As for the A-5, it didn't actually serve in Vietnam, the RA-5C did, and that was a recon bird. I hope we'll get it along with the E-121 at some point as AI aircraft. There's also the A-4, it is a community mod, and it's pretty good, although it does lack training missions and SP content. 

Initially, our F-4E will be a bomb truck from the "Top Gun era" (80s-early 90s Cold War), which is nice, because we do have a lot more assets dating from that time. However, that's just the first thing we'll get. Later on we'll have more options, as with the F-14.

[303_Kermit]

3 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

The MiG-17F, which was one of the two main opponents for the F-4 in Vietnam, is pretty far along and will hopefully come out this year. HB has also mentioned the very early F-4E as a possibility. That one was basically a late D with a gun, so there's that.

Also, we've got the A-1 coming, although it's still in early stages. A-7 is coming (it's further along than the F-8, actually), and that's a proper Vietnam aircraft. The A-6 will eventually come. We'll be getting the F-104, too. As for the A-5, it didn't actually serve in Vietnam, the RA-5C did, and that was a recon bird. I hope we'll get it along with the E-121 at some point as AI aircraft. There's also the A-4, it is a community mod, and it's pretty good, although it does lack training missions and SP content. 

Initially, our F-4E will be a bomb truck from the "Top Gun era" (80s-early 90s Cold War), which is nice, because we do have a lot more assets dating from that time. However, that's just the first thing we'll get. Later on we'll have more options, as with the F-14.

I hope for F-4D tbh. I dream about GDB  besides SUU-16 and SUU-23 would be fun

Edited January 29 by 303_Kermit

[Gunfreak]

15 minutes ago, 303_Kermit said:

Exactly. DCS F-4E will have more advantage over F-6 (MiG-19S), but MiG-21bis is clearly far superior compared to F-13, PF, FL, and even MF.

The MiG21 BIS has many advantages over those used by North Vietnam.

Except its not as light and spry as the earlier ones. Which gave then a close in fight advantages.

So we have a less dogfight friendly MiG21. But we a more dogfight friendly F4. So slightly reversed there.

[303_Kermit]

32 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

The MiG21 BIS has many advantages over those used by North Vietnam.

Except its not as light and spry as the earlier ones. Which gave then a close in fight advantages.

So we have a less dogfight friendly MiG21. But we a more dogfight friendly F4. So slightly reversed there.

Yes, that is the most common opinion, and it's wrong. However heavier, "bis" poses thrust to weight ratio of ~1 (below 13200ft, and about Ma1) far better than any plane of '60 era. Second -it has maneuver flaps -self retractable from it's T-O position. Bigger wingload and weight comes from bigger amount of internal fuel and better internal cannon (the one on F-13 has only 45 shells). If you consider that, even PF with extra gunpod (not present in Vietnam anyway) would be heavier than bis.
-It's able to reach 1 G more (8,5-7,5G vs 6,5-7,5G) than F-13 and PF, also has more internal fuel, which is very important.
-actually PF possessed better thrust to weight ratio than F-13

There is no more maneuverable MiG-21 as bis. lower weight won't compensate 3 300 KG thrust less of F-13. TRT of F-13 is worse than TRT of Bis. bis has slightly bigger turn radius, but it's far less than F-4E anyway.

Edited January 29 by 303_Kermit

[TLTeo]

3 hours ago, divinee said:

and F-5

Eh, the F-5E first flew in 1972 and the A that the Vietnamese flew is pretty different, much more so than just a slightly too modern RWR on the F-4E.

[divinee]

6 minutes ago, TLTeo said:

Eh, the F-5E first flew in 1972 and the A that the Vietnamese flew is pretty different, much more so than just a slightly too modern RWR on the F-4E.

Didn't talk about the F-5E, only F-5. If i understood correctly the list was about aircraft which were in use at vietnam.

Edited January 29 by divinee

[Silver_Dragon]

4 hours ago, 303_Kermit said:

The truth is that from Vietnam Era we have in DCS ... nothing.
F-4B/C/D
F-105
F-100
F-104
A-1
A-4 B (one VA)/C/E/F
A-7
A-5
A-6
E-121
MiG-21 F-13/PF/FL/MF
MiG-19S (F-6)
MiG-17F

so... we have to use a bit imagination anyway...

 

Has some of them Incoming to filling gaps:

• A-1E by Crosstail Studios
• A-6E by Heatblur
• A-7E by Flying Irons Simulations
• F-4B/J by Heatblur on a future.
• F-8J by Magnitude 3
• F-100D by Grynnelly Designs
• F-104G by Aernes
• Mig-17F by Red Storm Studios
• RAZBAM was plans to add a Mig-19S version.

Edited January 29 by Silver_Dragon

[303_Kermit]

43 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

Has some of them Incoming to filling gaps:

• A-1E by Crosstail Studios
• A-6E by Heatblur
• A-7E by Flying Irons Simulations
• F-4B/J by Heatblur on a future.
• F-8J by Magnitude 3
• F-100D by Grynnelly Designs
• F-104G by Aernes
• Mig-17F by Red Storm Studios
• RAZBAM was plans to add a Mig-19S version.

 

I am aware of that. With a little imagination we may try to play some "Vietnam-ish" scenarios. However It would be nice to have some asset. For example - Chaparral we have it's late version. (Desert Storm?) Smokeless, bigger range, full aspect. Nothing near to Chaparral from Vietnam - based on AiM-9D Sidewinder. Also E-121 Warning Star.

Also... Maybe not very popular and not important in Vietnam, but still a missing in DCS Mi-2  

Edited January 29 by 303_Kermit

[WinterH]

Our module, thankfully, isn't a Vietnam-first variant. It did as far as I know see some service there, but it's towards the tail end. Of two variants we're to get, the first one is about 1974ish, and the latter one is from 80s. The first one can be somewhat useful as a late Vietnam bird, but is amazingly well fitting as a 70s to 90s international service bird, which I vastly prefer, and fits better with what we have and what's coming in DCS.

Right now we have almost nothing that properly fit Vietnam War in DCS. Only a few kinda-sorta-maybe close enoughs. AFAIK, UH-1 mostly fits with a caveat or two, but mostly for a late war setting, same goes for F-4E DSCG. A-4E, depending on whether one's ok with freeware mods or not, also fits, pretty much exactly. MiG-19: only kind of, but close enough I guess. From upcoming modules A-1, F-100, and MiG-17 should fit well, but they're some way off in the future in my opinion. F-8 would also fit, but even though it is an aircraft I am very interested in, but at this point I think the best case scenario is it arriving many years from now, if at all.

Same goes for AI assets, arguably it's even worse actually. Pretty much no AI aircraft, no infantry (though I suppose current ones would work as a placeholder, kind of), and aside from some AAA, most other things are later variants of what served during Vietnam for either side.

Thus, unless one's fine with some suspension of disbelief, F-4E having a war RWR is the least of worries for a "Vietnam in DCS" experience. But the ones we get fit beautifully into existing and upcoming modules from 1975-1990ish period. Maybe HB will consider making the strobe only RWR an optional downgrade down the line to have an F-4 that'd fit slightly better for earlier parts of Vietnam War but to be honest it'll still be a bird with slats etc, and I'm personally rather thankful for that.

3 hours ago, 303_Kermit said:

For example - Chaparral we have it's late version.

Oh yeah I also lately think that we need more variants of existing ground units, especially SAMs. SA-9 (Strela-1) for example, ideally we should have a both earlier answer later variant. SA-2 and 3 too, should ideally have multiple variants from older to later. And most certainly for MANPADS. It really feels sad trying to make 70s missions or lower threat, Bush war kind of things, but either having to leave out manpads entirely, or have to contend with later Stinger and Igla variants. But the direction ED seems to want to take with regards to AI objects worries me. Great payware models and free ok looking ones is on one hand an excellent and fair sounding initiative, but on the other hand it sounds like it will take forever for them to happen, and in my opinion that's by far not worth at the expense of us getting multiple variants of old vehicles across the periods even if they use current old models.

[Gunfreak]

14 minutes ago, WinterH said:

Our module, thankfully, isn't a Vietnam-first variant. It did as far as I know see some service there, but it's towards the tail end. Of two variants we're to get, the first one is about 1974ish, and the latter one is from 80s. The first one can be somewhat useful as a late Vietnam bird, but is amazingly well fitting as a 70s to 90s international service bird, which I vastly prefer, and fits better with what we have and what's coming in DCS.

Right now we have almost nothing that properly fit Vietnam War in DCS. Only a few kinda-sorta-maybe close enoughs. AFAIK, UH-1 mostly fits with a caveat or two, but mostly for a late war setting, same goes for F-4E DSCG. A-4E, depending on whether one's ok with freeware mods or not, also fits, pretty much exactly. MiG-19: only kind of, but close enough I guess. From upcoming modules A-1, F-100, and MiG-17 should fit well, but they're some way off in the future in my opinion. F-8 would also fit, but even though it is an aircraft I am very interested in, but at this point I think the best case scenario is it arriving many years from now, if at all.

Same goes for AI assets, arguably it's even worse actually. Pretty much no AI aircraft, no infantry (though I suppose current ones would work as a placeholder, kind of), and aside from some AAA, most other things are later variants of what served during Vietnam for either side.

Thus, unless one's fine with some suspension of disbelief, F-4E having a war RWR is the least of worries for a "Vietnam in DCS" experience. But the ones we get fit beautifully into existing and upcoming modules from 1975-1990ish period. Maybe HB will consider making the strobe only RWR an optional downgrade down the line to have an F-4 that'd fit slightly better for earlier parts of Vietnam War but to be honest it'll still be a bird with slats etc, and I'm personally rather thankful for that.

Oh yeah I also lately think that we need more variants of existing ground units, especially SAMs. SA-9 (Strela-1) for example, ideally we should have a both earlier answer later variant. SA-2 and 3 too, should ideally have multiple variants from older to later. And most certainly for MANPADS. It really feels sad trying to make 70s missions or lower threat, Bush war kind of things, but either having to leave out manpads entirely, or have to contend with later Stinger and Igla variants. But the direction ED seems to want to take with regards to AI objects worries me. Great payware models and free ok looking ones is on one hand an excellent and fair sounding initiative, but on the other hand it sounds like it will take forever for them to happen, and in my opinion that's by far not worth at the expense of us getting multiple variants of old vehicles across the periods even if they use current old models.

I mean in DCS we are forced to fight 1945 Me109s with our 1943 Spitfires(including in paid 3rd party campaigns. Spitfire instead of fighting a me109G2 or G6 which the spitfire was equal in speed and far more maneuverable. We are fighting K4s that are what like 150kmh faster? 150kmh is a ginormous difference in a ww2 setting. Arguably equal to flying an F16 with AIM-9X and helmet would be in 1979 against MiG21 and MiG23 of that period.

Compared to that, I think limiting weapons will make most Vietnam but not Vietnam era aircraft work just fine.

[Stackup]

5 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

A-1E by Crosstail Studios

They are doing an H not an E

[ponys123]

3 hours ago, WinterH said:

amazingly well fitting as a 70s to 90s international service bird, which I vastly prefer, and fits better with what we have and what's coming in DCS

While I can't disagree with personal preference, I'll venture out on a limb and say that most people would prefer to play those versions of iconic fighters that best represent them at their peak - the F-4E that was the world's leading distributor of MiG parts, not a bomb truck 20 years past its use-by date. 

[Gunfreak]

14 minutes ago, ponys123 said:

While I can't disagree with personal preference, I'll venture out on a limb and say that most people would prefer to play those versions of iconic fighters that best represent them at their peak - the F-4E that was the world's leading distributor of MiG parts, not a bomb truck 20 years past its use-by date. 

It did a lot of bomb trucking in Vietnam too, vast majority of USAF F4s never saw a mig. They just bombed jungle(sorry suspects enemy truck parks)

F4 got a decent amount of air to air kills for Iran in the 80s and also got quite a few in the 70s for Isreal.

[ponys123]

4 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

It did a lot of bomb trucking in Vietnam too, vast majority of USAF F4s never saw a mig. They just bombed jungle(sorry suspects enemy truck parks)

F4 got a decent amount of air to air kills for Iran in the 80s and also got quite a few in the 70s for Isreal.

Yeah, but there were newer and cooler jets around. What fighter pilot doesn't want to feel like he's got the hottest ride?

[Gunfreak]

8 minutes ago, ponys123 said:

Yeah, but there were newer and cooler jets around. What fighter pilot doesn't want to feel like he's got the hottest ride?

A lot of people like a challenge. And in first half of 70s before the F14 and F15. It was the hotest ride. For Iran it was the second hotest ride after the F14. And arguably hotter than anything the Iraqis had(even if MiG23 and F1 on paper might look better.)

For the last proper war Israel fought, the F4 was their main air to air aircraft.

[Kalasnkova74]

16 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

…For the last proper war Israel fought, the F4 was their main air to air aircraft.

If you’re referring to the Yom Kippur war, Israeli Kurnass units mostly flew air to ground strike missions against Arab Coalition air bases , DEAD (the hard way) & regional interdiction targets. They shot down a lot of MiGs as a consequence of being routinely intercepted (and turning the tables) coming off target by MiG-17s and MiG-21s, but that wasn’t their primary role. At one juncture , the  IDF brass threatened Kurnass pilots to bomb or face court martial because MiGs would intercept them on target run in. Naturally the Kurnass pilots jettisoned and went to fight….theyd get their kills, but their targets would live another day.  To a limited extent Kurnass crews flew cargo escort for Operation Nickel Grass USAF transports & night combat air patrols due to their radar. 

For the most part, IAI Neshers & Mirages were the IDF/AFs primary air to air aircraft.

[303_Kermit]

12 hours ago, Kalasnkova74 said:

If you’re referring to the Yom Kippur war, Israeli Kurnass units mostly flew air to ground strike missions against Arab Coalition air bases , DEAD (the hard way) & regional interdiction targets. They shot down a lot of MiGs as a consequence of being routinely intercepted (and turning the tables) coming off target by MiG-17s and MiG-21s, but that wasn’t their primary role. At one juncture , the  IDF brass threatened Kurnass pilots to bomb or face court martial because MiGs would intercept them on target run in. Naturally the Kurnass pilots jettisoned and went to fight….theyd get their kills, but their targets would live another day.  To a limited extent Kurnass crews flew cargo escort for Operation Nickel Grass USAF transports & night combat air patrols due to their radar. 

For the most part, IAI Neshers & Mirages were the IDF/AFs primary air to air aircraft.

Phantom Started his career in Kheil HaAvir in war of Attrition I believe. Mainly as Fighter. A Ground Attack role was covered those times mainly (but not only) by A-4 and survived Mystere's

[MBot]

I think it it is interesting how strongly many associate the F-4E with Vietnam. From the Heatblur F-4E manual:

In detail, the USAF confirmed 21 kills.

In combat, the Israeli Air Force downed 116 jets.

The IRIAF shot down 83 aircraft.