Probable F-4E Social Media Backlash

[RustBelt]

On 2/11/2024 at 11:19 AM, Gunfreak said:

Wish FFB was better in DCS, the F14 is the only jet I would class as having full force feedback. And flying it with a FFB stick and simshaker pad is amazing.

The dcs warbirds have very weak FFB effects. Some basics are there like lift under the control surfaces, stall shaking to some degree and some trim effects. But diving down past 500mph in the Mustang there is very little force acting on the stick. In other ww2 sims you pass 500mph in the Mustang and you really have to pull to get that stick back. And in yet another ww2 sim the force feedback effects are such you can really feel you have to fight that stick/plane to get the nose/sight on the enemy if forces are acting on the plane. Or feeling how much more you have to work to roll one type of plane vs another.

None of that is present in dcs warbirds. The stick gives tiny hint of things. But never forces you to actually use any force to move the stick.

It's fantastic for helicopter trim of course, only way to get proper force trim.

I do home the F4 will be as good as the F14 when it comes to FFB effects.

 

Wish all FFB was better, but with low install base it won’t be a big focus until more Hobby level products come back to market. Hell Even Heatblur themselves don’t always have a working FFB stick to develop with. The current best deal has a 1 year wait list. And everything else is either a roll of the eBay dice, or Industry sim level equipment, at industry pricing. 
 

When the buy in gets as high as FFB racing wheels expect big improvements, as well as hopefully moving away from 1990’s DirectInput FFB protocols.  

Edited February 13, 2024 by RustBelt

[Talisman_VR]

12 hours ago, RustBelt said:

Wish all FFB was better, but with low install base it won’t be a big focus until more Hobby level products come back to market. Hell Even Heatblur themselves don’t always have a working FFB stick to develop with. The current best deal has a 1 year wait list. And everything else is either a roll of the eBay dice, or Industry sim level equipment, at industry pricing. 
 

When the buy in gets as high as FFB racing wheels expect big improvements, as well as hopefully moving away from 1990’s DirectInput FFB protocols.  

 

I just don't understand why FFB joysticks are not more of a thing for modern devices.  If MS could produce their MSFF joystick all those years ago (and Saitek) then why has there not been much more progress since then?  When I am in VR, it is the feel/feedback function that is important to me, not the physical look of a joystick.  I don't need or want a physically sexy looking joystick when I can be far more accurate when flying with FFB and have far more immersion.

Surely there is a gap in the market for someone to make a clean sweep and dominate market share in this regard. 

Happy landings,

Talisman 

Edited February 13, 2024 by Talisman_VR

[MAXsenna]

I just don't understand why FFB joysticks are not more of a thing for modern devices.  If MS could produce their MSFF joystick all those years ago (and Saitek) then why has there not been much more progress since then?  When I am in VR, it is the feel/feedback function that is important to me, not the physical look of a joystick.  I don't need or want a physically sexy looking joystick when I can be far more accurate when flying with FFB and have far more immersion.
Surely there is a gap in the market for someone to make a clean sweep and dominate market share in this regard. 
Happy landings,
Talisman 

Because Immersion Corp. had the patent, and they behaved like a patent troll. Sony and Microsoft were willing to pay for licensing on their consoles, but MS dropped it for computers. Flightsims are a footnote compared to racing sims. Just look at all the gear that's available. I do believe the patent now has expired.

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[Moose_Jaw]

On 2/10/2024 at 6:14 PM, Victory205 said:

 

A bunch of real pilots from my era, who tend to be dismissive of Youtube Hero’s, especially those who vomit every detail of their lives in public, call those two guys, “Loser” and the “Donkey”. 
 

 

Some chaps I know call them moaner and goon. 

[Lurker]

No one cares....

 

No wait let me correct that, no one REALLY cares. 

[MichaelJWP15]

Back in the day, I used a Microsoft FF Sidewinder stick, and we supported it in our games. I never really got on with though as the force application was too crude. Seeing how good some of the wheels are now it would be great if we could get something similar for flight sims. The software would have to be up to it though, with low latency.

Devs would also have to decide whether to replicate early attempts at artificial feel when hydraulic controls were first introduced, or something more like what feedback you woud get if controls were still connected by pushrods etc. Of course FBW like the F-16 is a special case, I think it has no feedback, right?

[MAXsenna]

Back in the day, I used a Microsoft FF Sidewinder stick, and we supported it in our games. I never really got on with though as the force application was too crude. Seeing how good some of the wheels are now it would be great if we could get something similar for flight sims. The software would have to be up to it though, with low latency.
Devs would also have to decide whether to replicate early attempts at artificial feel when hydraulic controls were first introduced, or something more like what feedback you woud get if controls were still connected by pushrods etc. Of course FBW like the F-16 is a special case, I think it has no feedback, right?

You can sort of achieve this already with the MS FFB2. And it's absolutely fantastic fire helicopters. It does have one major flaw though. It has a pretty large hardware defined deadzone, which is very noticeable when adding an extension. And it also makes it very sloppy at the center, because the FFB is then turned off so to speak.
The F-16 doesn't really move at all, and is force sensing.
Cheers!

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[Yoda967]

On 2/10/2024 at 5:14 PM, Victory205 said:

It’s a desktop sim, you’re sitting on your arse in a chair that is firmly on the ground. There is no reason to be intimidated or overwhelmed. Learn one step at a time.

 

This.

[Nodak]

Think sales would always be dismal, many don't like the way they are implemented, the forces are generally too weak for flight and most of the effects shaking the stick would actually be felt through the arse, not the hand doing the flying and shooting, why the many invest in seat shakers instead.  Also if your competitive the last thing you want is something shaking up your shooting hit percentages.  We all can agree tactile feedback is important, not everyone will agree in the how its achieved.  I'd love a full length stick that gave actual levels of resistance and the stall buffets from airflow of a simulated warbird, but that day ain't here, and MS sidewinder levels don't cut it.    

[Keith Briscoe]

As a sim racer turned sim flyer... I WISH we could get better access to force feedback peripherals for flying.  If there was another Pandemic, I'll bet that would help.... no, I don't really want another pandemic.

But, I think this played a big part of the sim racing boom, and associated driving peripherals and manufacturers.  Direct Drive wheel bases had been a thing even 20 (?) years ago, but it was for the elite, very expensive and not easy to get.  After 2020, we saw the number of options probably quadruple or more (Fanatec, Accuforce, SimMagic, Moza, and I think now the Consumer companies like Logitech and Thrustmaster have options too).  FF in racing is a game changer.  I think it would be in flying too.

Oh well, I can only hope.

[Dragon1-1]

Yeah, we need FFB, but that's only recently began to even be feasible, due to patent troubles. I hope this gets more common now, IRL you get feedback through both stick and pedals, especially in a warbird. 

That said, the F-16 is a force sensing stick without anything like force feedback, and so is the Hornet. I imagine a lifelong F-16 driver would have similar trouble fighting in the real F-14, given that this was the case for this lifelong F-16 simmer.  It takes a lot of practice to get rid of bad habits the Viper teaches you, it does so much for you that the way you operate the stick is very different from even the Hornet, nevermind an analog jet like the Tomcat. I'm better now, but the transition was hard.

Also worth noting, Mover and Gonky fly enough DCS that the "real jet vs. simmer" argument doesn't really apply to them. They're familiar enough with flying without the cues that you don't get sitting in a chair. What we saw in the video can be entirely attributed to Mover not being accustomed to flying something that doesn't hold your hand.

[Gunfreak]

1 hour ago, Nodak said:

Think sales would always be dismal, many don't like the way they are implemented, the forces are generally too weak for flight and most of the effects shaking the stick would actually be felt through the arse, not the hand doing the flying and shooting, why the many invest in seat shakers instead.  Also if your competitive the last thing you want is something shaking up your shooting hit percentages.  We all can agree tactile feedback is important, not everyone will agree in the how its achieved.  I'd love a full length stick that gave actual levels of resistance and the stall buffets from airflow of a simulated warbird, but that day ain't here, and MS sidewinder levels don't cut it.    

Having recently tried the viggen for the first time since I got my FFB baseca year or so ago. And even with the weak force it uses. I still have to fight my Viggen in several instances. Add my simshaker pad and it's very immersive.

Flying the Viggen slow down a tight turn and suddenly my stick throws itself to the opposite side. Very cool. Sadly only viggen and F14 have full FFB support in DCS. Other sims of less fidelity have much better FFB effects.

[Cab]

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Also worth noting, Mover and Gonky fly enough DCS that the "real jet vs. simmer" argument doesn't really apply to them. They're familiar enough with flying without the cues that you don't get sitting in a chair. What we saw in the video can be entirely attributed to Mover not being accustomed to flying something that doesn't hold your hand.

You should let them know. They may not understand that.

[SgtPappy]

2 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

Having recently tried the viggen for the first time since I got my FFB baseca year or so ago. And even with the weak force it uses. I still have to fight my Viggen in several instances. Add my simshaker pad and it's very immersive.

Flying the Viggen slow down a tight turn and suddenly my stick throws itself to the opposite side. Very cool. Sadly only viggen and F14 have full FFB support in DCS. Other sims of less fidelity have much better FFB effects.

I'm assuming the F-4 will have FFB as well. After reading how people experienced the F-14 in a whole new light, I just bought a Sidewinder FFB2 which arrives next week. I'm pumped.

[Gunfreak]

33 minutes ago, SgtPappy said:

I'm assuming the F-4 will have FFB as well. After reading how people experienced the F-14 in a whole new light, I just bought a Sidewinder FFB2 which arrives next week. I'm pumped.

The F14 has good FBB but thr Viggen is a beat(though some of it might be because my rudders were acting up) 

But doing a slow turn into the runway.(too slow) I would feel my stick try and slam into the turn and flip my viggen on it's head. The F14 is docile pony next to the wild tempered stallion that is the Viggen when it comes to FFB.

[MAXsenna]

Think sales would always be dismal, many don't like the way they are implemented, the forces are generally too weak for flight and most of the effects shaking the stick would actually be felt through the arse, not the hand doing the flying and shooting, why the many invest in seat shakers instead.  Also if your competitive the last thing you want is something shaking up your shooting hit percentages.  We all can agree tactile feedback is important, not everyone will agree in the how its achieved.  I'd love a full length stick that gave actual levels of resistance and the stall buffets from airflow of a simulated warbird, but that day ain't here, and MS sidewinder levels don't cut it.    

I don't won't or use FFB for the "effects" like guns, I agree with you there. Buttkickers, Simshakers will be better. While a simulation of the magnetic brake/force trim in helicopters, the stick moving when trimming in non-FBW airplanes. Airflow over surfaces etc. That's what I want. The MS FFB2 is fine. For a 20+ peripheral that still work, (I've got five), I'd say it's probably the best stick that to this day ever was. Might lose the title in the next 20 years or so of course.

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1 hour ago, SgtPappy said:

I'm assuming the F-4 will have FFB as well. After reading how people experienced the F-14 in a whole new light, I just bought a Sidewinder FFB2 which arrives next week. I'm pumped.

You should be. Beware of the hardware deadzone. You won't like that, while it will make you want a perfect FFB stick.

3 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

Sadly only viggen and F14 have full FFB support in DCS. Other sims of less fidelity have much better FFB effects.

Sorry pal. You just told me you don't own the C-101.

[Jayhawk1971]

I have two Logitech G940 HOTAS which I treat like raw eggs until I'll invest in something newer (for which I'd have to wait up to 1 year or so I've read). The throttle is spiky and imprecise, but the FFB with the stick is nice.

I'll get a Winwing throttle base soon, haven't decided which throttle yet, though.

[Gunfreak]

16 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

I don't won't or use FFB for the "effects" like guns, I agree with you there. Buttkickers, Simshakers will be better. While a simulation of the magnetic brake/force trim in helicopters, the stick moving when trimming in non-FBW airplanes. Airflow over surfaces etc. That's what I want. The MS FFB2 is fine. For a 20+ peripheral that still work, (I've got five), I'd say it's probably the best stick that to this day ever was. Might lose the title in the next 20 years or so of course.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

You should be. Beware of the hardware deadzone. You won't like that, while it will make you want a perfect FFB stick.

Sorry pal. You just told me you don't own the C-101.

I have none of the trainers. Those and the HIP and Black Shark are the only modules left for me.(oh and that biplane acrobatics thing)

[SgtPappy]

41 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

For a 20+ peripheral that still work, (I've got five), I'd say it's probably the best stick that to this day ever was. Might lose the title in the next 20 years or so of course.
 

You should be. Beware of the hardware deadzone. You won't like that, while it will make you want a perfect FFB stick.

 

May I ask why you have many? Do they break often? 

Yea the deadzone thing might be tough, but I still have my VKB with which to switch back and forth. Maybe one day there will be a good FFB stick or a kit that won't break the bank.

[MichaelJWP15]

7 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

You can sort of achieve this already with the MS FFB2. And it's absolutely fantastic fire helicopters. It does have one major flaw though. It has a pretty large hardware defined deadzone, which is very noticeable when adding an extension. And it also makes it very sloppy at the center, because the FFB is then turned off so to speak.
The F-16 doesn't really move at all, and is force sensing.
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

Any deadzone is a dealbreaker for me, I hate them.

Also after thinking about this quite a lot, I think FF is far more important for racing sims than flight sims. I've driven real track cars and done a lot of race simming and the tech has come leaps and bounds in the 25 years I've been doing sims. 

In real aircraft, I think now pilots are used to it, they don't really miss the feedback through the stick that much in anything 1960s+, though like others who've commented, there is a wealth of information coming to you via your seat on g-forces, rotation, slide slip, buffet, structural limits, as well as the sounds from slipstream, engine and stresses and so on. (At least we can have good audio in sims)

[Johnny Dioxin]

On 2/10/2024 at 5:10 PM, Tango3B said:

A real jet gives you certain sensations you will never experience in DCS.

100%. I've raced in real race cars in the '80's and did reasonably well - won quite a few trophies. On a PC my racing is terrible. Always has been. I won one online race in over 20 years and these days I'm at the back of the field. IRL I didn't race by the numbers as many of my colleagues did - I raced using the things that are all missing on a PC.

[SloppyDog]

On 2/10/2024 at 11:54 AM, Kalasnkova74 said:

For those unaware, two (unwillingly) retired fighter pilots occasionally make DCS content showcasing BFM engagements . In the linked video, Mover has trouble at times handing the relatively analog F-14 against Gonky in an F/A-18. 

Note these people are trained fighter pilots and thus more experienced than your typical DCS player. If Mover had some trouble, it’s safe to say the average YouTuber used to 4th generation tech is in for more challenges flying and fighting the F-4E, especially for BFM. 

I wouldn’t be surprised if the same people hyping up the F-4E now online turn against the aircraft once they lose BFM bouts - either to bad tactics (4th Gen “lift vector and PULL” won’t work here) or to bad aircraft handling like adverse yaw or fighting with the yaw stability augmentation on. The manual nature of weapons delivery will probably be another nail in the social media coffin , since it’ll be dead reckoning nav & mils/airspeed/ dive angle instead of a JDAM and targeting pod. Pave Spike and Maverick will offer electronic targeting options, but it’ll be a shadow of later tech. 

Well, this is an interesting take on it. I had thought about it and is nice to see other people seeing this as well. As much as a legend the F-4E is, and deservedly so, it is a step back from the "teen series" of fighter aircraft. I believe Heatblur will deliver a great product, faithful to the last screw and rivet, but that may be a problem, because as legendary the F-4 is, it is not without its 3rd gen idiosyncrasies, and many people will be surprised by that. 

[PawlaczGMD]

The F-4E will hardly be the most primitive DCS aircraft. People fly the F-5 without crying about the issues you're worrying about. Same for the Mig-21, although it cheats with CCIP. 

As long as the missions have realistic expectations on bombing accuracy (given weak DCS explosions), we will be fine. 

[Stackup]

35 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

As long as the missions have realistic expectations on bombing accuracy (given weak DCS explosions), we will be fine. 

Just take enough bombs that it doesn't matter.  Obliterate the target and everything else in the general area.  Or use one of the various guided munitions.

[PawlaczGMD]

15 minutes ago, Stackup said:

Just take enough bombs that it doesn't matter.  Obliterate the target and everything else in the general area.  Or use one of the various guided munitions.

Sure, but it depends on the mission if that's possible. I have really struggled in A2G in the paid F-5 campaign, because e.g. you have to destroy most of a large convoy with AAA and Iglas using only 5 bombs and rockets, the F-5 barely flies with that loadout, and the wingman AI is bugged and they don't attack anything. This is an example of requiring unreasonable accuracy