TGP Auto Handoff to AGM-65D Causes Loss of SOI

[Sn0wMan4]

Steps to replicate:

1. Set A-G
2. SMS select AG-65D. Set to PRE.
3. Set right MFD to WPN
4. Set left MFD to TGP.
5. Set TGP to SOI.
6. Set TGP to AUTO.
7. Locate target
8. Target designate
9. SOI will change to WPN during handover.

Additionally, TGP SNOWPLOW gets fixed to the horizontal plane and not at an angle to the ground when in TGP/AGM-65D.

TGP Loses SOI When Targeting and WPN Active.trk

Edited February 26 by Sn0wMan4
clarification

[Enabler]

I can confirm this behavior.

 

[llOPPOTATOll]

When you handoff from the TPOD to the Maverick it should switch SOI to the WPN page, so this is correct

[Furiz]

6 hours ago, Sn0wMan4 said:

Steps to replicate:

1. Set A-G
2. SMS select AG-65D. Set to PRE.
3. Set right MFD to WPN
4. Set left MFD to TGP.
5. Set TGP to SOI.
6. Set TGP to AUTO.
7. Locate target
8. Target designate
9. SOI will change to WPN during handover.

Additionally, TGP SNOWPLOW gets fixed to the horizontal plane and not at an angle to the ground when in TGP/AGM-65D.

TGP Loses SOI When Targeting and WPN Active.trk 791.85 kB · 2 downloads

 

This is no bug, it is intentional, read EO-PRE mode from:

 

[Sn0wMan4]

11 hours ago, Furiz said:

This is no bug, it is intentional, read EO-PRE mode from:

 

This is not intentional.

This is the previous and correct behavior. Note time stamp 2:14. (also want to point out this was posted 1 year ago, so that's 4 years after your update reference)

Why is this being posted 'correct as is' when there's evidence that this is not the previous behavior nor is it mentioned as a change?

Edited February 26 by Sn0wMan4

[Furiz]

1 hour ago, Sn0wMan4 said:

This is the previous and correct behavior.

Correct, how do you know what is correct?

 

1 hour ago, Sn0wMan4 said:

Why is this being posted 'correct as is' when there's evidence that this is not the previous behavior nor is it mentioned as a change?

We know its not previous behavior.

FCR was mentioned, I assume the logic is the same for TGP, when handoff is initiated SOI is switched to WPN page.

[Enabler]

I do wish that when update notes are posted, there would be an expanded list that breaks down each update/fix so we can all understand what exactly we are looking for. The update notice generally isn't helpful in this regard. Therefore, it generates a lot of unnecessary reporting. 

[Sn0wMan4]

3 hours ago, Furiz said:

Correct, how do you know what is correct?

 

We know its not previous behavior.

FCR was mentioned, I assume the logic is the same for TGP, when handoff is initiated SOI is switched to WPN page.

I provided a YouTube video tutorial showing that it is previous behavior so I'm not sure why you keep saying it wasn't. Did you watch the video? It's quite clear that setting the target in the TGP does not shift the SOI to WPN.

Second, the procedure now is ridiculous with the SOI switch mandatory because if the target doesn't acquire, you're stuck in the WPN as SOI with an inferior magnification, and then you have to SOI back to TGP to reacquire the target. This makes rapid fire AGMs painfully complicated, since in the previous version, you could just slew the TGP over another target and the AGM would get the handoff again automatically.

The only bypass to this is to not enable WPN on your other MFD, that way it can never change SOI. Why this is intentional is beyond me.

Edited February 26 by Sn0wMan4

[Furiz]

10 minutes ago, Sn0wMan4 said:

I provided a YouTube video tutorial showing that it is previous behavior so I'm not sure why you keep saying it wasn't. Did you watch the video? It's quite clear that setting the target in the TGP does not shift the SOI to WPN.

Second, the procedure now is ridiculous with the SOI switch mandatory because if the target doesn't acquire, you're stuck in the WPN as SOI with an inferior magnification, and then you have to SOI back to TGP to reacquire the target.

The only bypass to this is to not enable WPN on your other MFD, that way it can never change SOI. Why this is intentional is beyond me.

Functional downgrade for sure.

 

This is very confusing.

I never said that what you said about previous behavior is not true.

Anyways you never answered my question,

how do you know what is correct behavior?

 

[Sn0wMan4]

36 minutes ago, Furiz said:

This is very confusing.

I never said that what you said about previous behavior is not true.

Anyways you never answered my question,

how do you know what is correct behavior?

 

Okay, I'll retract "correct" behavior. I don't know how a real F-16 TGP hands off to a WPN, but this change is not an improvement. Locking anything in the TPG causes the SOI to move, so if you TMS forward with TGP SOI and you missed, you have to switch SOI back every single time to reacquire a target. All this has made me do is never have WPN active on my right MFD, which is a real shame.

Edit: a workaround to this is to target with the TGP, switch the SOI back, then use TMS-RIGHT to get the AGM to lock on to new targets without having to go back and forth between SOI.

Edited February 26 by Sn0wMan4

[rob10]

1 hour ago, Sn0wMan4 said:

... this change is not an improvement.

I have no idea what the correct behaviour on this is, but I can guarantee you that ED doesn't care if a change is an improvement or not, their aim is to get as close to the real thing as possible (within legal and available information bounds).  There are lots of things on lots of planes that don't appear to make sense in DCS, but that doesn't mean it isn't reality and we're missing a function or workflow logic that might make it seem wrong.  Or maybe it's just a question of the engineers thought that was the best way to do it and it just sucks in the cockpit in the real thing.  That's why ED won't change things that "feel wrong" are "make things worse" without evidence that it's wrong.

[Sn0wMan4]

2 hours ago, rob10 said:

I have no idea what the correct behaviour on this is, but I can guarantee you that ED doesn't care if a change is an improvement or not, their aim is to get as close to the real thing as possible (within legal and available information bounds).  There are lots of things on lots of planes that don't appear to make sense in DCS, but that doesn't mean it isn't reality and we're missing a function or workflow logic that might make it seem wrong.  Or maybe it's just a question of the engineers thought that was the best way to do it and it just sucks in the cockpit in the real thing.  That's why ED won't change things that "feel wrong" are "make things worse" without evidence that it's wrong.

Eh, I looked it up. It's not how it works. ED made a change to the FCR "When the FCR is SOI and set to GM, GMT, or SEA sub-modes, entering FTT or MTT will also transition the SOI to WPN and the AGM-65 seeker will enter SLEW mode" and the change was copied to the TGP.

It was working correctly before this patch, now ED broke it, and are saying it's "correct as is."

Edited February 27 by Sn0wMan4

[Raptor9]

The SOI will automatically transition to the MFD WPN format any time the TGP or the FCR enters a track mode while in an EO sub-mode. This was a deliberate change in both regards, it wasn't an accident.

[Sn0wMan4]

9 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

The SOI will automatically transition to the MFD WPN format any time the TGP or the FCR enters a track mode while in an EO sub-mode. This was a deliberate change in both regards, it wasn't an accident.

Except the AGM-65D isn't EO, it's infrared. The AGM-65D should not behave in this way.

[Raptor9]

2 minutes ago, Sn0wMan4 said:

Except the AGM-65D isn't EO, it's infrared. The AGM-65D should not behave in this way.

The weapon delivery sub-modes of EO-PRE, EO-BORE, and EO-VIS apply to all AGM-65 missiles of any variant. The IR-guided AGM-65's do not have their own unique weapon delivery sub-modes.

[Sn0wMan4]

44 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

The weapon delivery sub-modes of EO-PRE, EO-BORE, and EO-VIS apply to all AGM-65 missiles of any variant. The IR-guided AGM-65's do not have their own unique weapon delivery sub-modes.

I agree on the accuracy that the TMS-Forward when FCR is SOI indeed changes SOI to WPN, but this is not the behavior when using TGP in AUTO.

Edit; and this is the last thing I'll say, Wags shows what RIGHT looks like. I'd double check with him on this one.

 

Edited February 27 by Sn0wMan4

[Furiz]

3 hours ago, Sn0wMan4 said:

I'd double check with him on this one.

You think they are doing this on their own?

 

3 hours ago, Sn0wMan4 said:

I agree on the accuracy that the TMS-Forward when FCR is SOI indeed changes SOI to WPN, but this is not the behavior when using TGP in AUTO.

I see the logic why you think it shouldn't switch SOI to WPN page when TGP is in AUTO,

since TGP can, with TMS RIGHT, command Mav to redesignate so why should SOI switch to WPN page right? It would be logical to switch to WPN page if Mav actually locks something so you can unlock if that something is not the correct target.

That would seem logical to me, but I guess they did their research, maybe this could be researched a bit more.

[Sn0wMan4]

17 hours ago, Furiz said:

You think they are doing this on their own?

 

I see the logic why you think it shouldn't switch SOI to WPN page when TGP is in AUTO,

since TGP can, with TMS RIGHT, command Mav to redesignate so why should SOI switch to WPN page right? It would be logical to switch to WPN page if Mav actually locks something so you can unlock if that something is not the correct target.

That would seem logical to me, but I guess they did their research, maybe this could be researched a bit more.

I found the document they used for this change and their change log is almost verbatim to it. It's the student manual for the deployment of AGMs.

Except they didn't realize it pertained only to FCR. TGP does not hand over SOI to WPN when you TMS forward, because it's a handoff of targeting data.

So when they changed FCR to work correctly, they made it apply to the TGP as well.

Edited February 28 by Sn0wMan4

[Raptor9]

@Sn0wMan4, you keep claiming we simply copied the behavior over from the FCR, when in fact this is absolutely not true. I do not know what document to which you are referring, but the devs have seen more than one document that does specifically state the SOI will transition from TGP to WPN upon the TGP entering track.

I can see you are quite new to the forums, so I assure you that the devs do not make changes without research into a topic. In the past there have been occasions when someone claimed this or that on a given aircraft, and dev time was expended making a change accordingly. Then later it was proven that this was not accurate at all, and yet more dev time was expended correcting it back the way it was. If you have any public, unclassified documents that state otherwise, you are free to send them via PM to one of our community managers, @BIGNEWY or @NineLine. Otherwise, such claims without evidence to back them up are not valid, and we cannot make a change on unsubstantiated claims.

[AngryViper.101]

Hi

I have been flying the F-16 in DCS for two plus years. 

I also want to know if this is an improvement? 

 

In the past when TMS fwd to point track a target the TGP remained SOI. 

Since the 22 Feb 2024 update, when I TMS fwd the SOI is changed to the WPN, if WPN is selected in the other MFD. 

In the past I had to TMS right to handoff to the WPN page, and thereafter change SOI with DMS right, then TMS fwd again. 

Thanks

Edited February 28 by AngryViper.101

[Nedum]

Does a ripple shot still work like before, or do I have to DMS down after each target lock?

[AngryViper.101]

1 hour ago, Nedum said:

Does a ripple shot still work like before, or do I have to DMS down after each target lock?

I tried it yesterday and on the large pylons that host only one missile on each wing it works as expected. 

[Sn0wMan4]

11 hours ago, AngryViper.101 said:

I tried it yesterday and on the large pylons that host only one missile on each wing it works as expected. 

Both launchers are supposed to support it but only the single one actually does. However, you're not supposed to do this in practice because you can't verify the 2nd target when you launch. You should just lock both and use missile step between shots.

Edited February 29 by Sn0wMan4

[RyanR]

I, too, can confirm this behavior. Good to know that it's not just me.

As a newbie to DCS, I've been going bonkers with things like this. The learning curve is steep enough!

-Ryan

[RyanR]

Seems the single AGM-65 launcher is a no-go as well. If it works for you, maybe it works for a single Maverick variant. So far, no joy with any variant of the IR Mavericks

Really frustrating. I can train the TGP with the FCR on a truck convoy I made in GMT mode with TMS up. The TGP immediately picks up the target. Then any attempt to TMS up or right breaks the TGP lock and switches to the WPN page....

Is this a bug, or am I just wrong here? So far, the only surefire "workaround" is to dump a GBU on the lead vehicle in the convoy. That stops the whole convoy, then you extend.... circle back..... and snag each remaining vehicle with the Mavericks in VIS mode. The plume of smoke from the first vehicle making it easy to snipe the remaining targets with the Maverick seeker.

-Ryan