TGP Auto Handoff to AGM-65D Causes Loss of SOI

[Nedum]

On 2/28/2024 at 2:27 PM, AngryViper.101 said:

I tried it yesterday and on the large pylons that host only one missile on each wing it works as expected. 

Hm?

I've tried ripple shots. Now they are a pain in the "long end back".

It's exact how I thought it would be. You have to switch back to the TGP every time you want to designate a new target.

For a ripple shot: make TGP SOI, designate target, automatic switch to WPN page (WPN page = SOI), you have to manually switch back to TGP and designate again the other target. The UASF add unnecessary workload for what reason for?

Is there a better way to do fast ripple shots? And for what reason is this automatic switch for? If the wrong target was designated, you have to switch back to the TGP. I don't get it. "Hey Pilot, your workload wasn't enough, here is a gift for you, some unnecessary workload.. muhahahaha.

Can someone explain for what this behavior should be good for?

 

[Furiz]

8 hours ago, Nedum said:

Is there a better way to do fast ripple shots?

Yeah, do them with Maverick only.

8 hours ago, Nedum said:

And for what reason is this automatic switch for? If the wrong target was designated, you have to switch back to the TGP.

No, you really don't need to switch back to TGP, you can re-designate with Maverick.

8 hours ago, Nedum said:

Can someone explain for what this behavior should be good for?

Cause when you designate you should check if the target is good, then if it is good you should fire, if not you need to undesignate and you can't do that with TGP.

[AngryViper.101]

This is interesting.

In the past we likely relied on the TGP too much, but after reading posts about using Mavericks for several years ... it is becoming more apparent that we must use the WPN page of the maverick for the final lock on prior to engaging.

However, why it may become a bit gray is where we use the forced correlation mode, to lock on to an 'area' and not a specific target.
This is typically done with the larger warhead variants G and K, as well as the smaller warhead H variant.

From what I have read the force correlation / area track mode should only be used for very large targets such as ships or a large building complex, when you want to hit a specific point on that large object.

So we must try and use the WPN page in other engagements, to ensure we lock on the the target properly .

Is it then correct of me to assume that we must use the TGP to identify target locations at very long range, move in closer, then make use of the WPN page for final corrections, lock on, prior to rifling?

I have mostly used the TGP and did not pay much attention to using the WPN page, it usually auto locked on fine and I only used it to TMS left twice for area track mode when I do not require a very specific lock-on, just to get the missle fired in the general direction using G, K and H variants.

[Nedum]

On 3/4/2024 at 7:43 AM, Furiz said:

Yeah, do them with Maverick only.

No, you really don't need to switch back to TGP, you can re-designate with Maverick.

Cause when you designate you should check if the target is good, then if it is good you should fire, if not you need to undesignate and you can't do that with TGP.

Thank you for the response.

Yes, you should always double-check right before you fire your weapons. But since when is micromanagement in any way a workload reduction?
But it is what it is.

[Furiz]

2 hours ago, Nedum said:

Thank you for the response.

Yes, you should always double-check right before you fire your weapons. But since when is micromanagement in any way a workload reduction?
But it is what it is.

Either way you would have to switch SOI for this or that reason. I think it is much better this way.

[RyanR]

I agree this seems more correct. While practicing boresighting the MAVs, I set up a group of (what I thought were stationary) vehicles tightly packed together in the desert. Once the first MAV hit, they all scrambled. The vehicle my second MAV (in flight) was after just happened to hide right behind the smoking pile that was the first target. There was a hit, but not lethal. I agree, rippling MAVs off isn't the greatest way to go in some cases.

The TGP stays stabilized on the target area, so a TMS right should put the next MAV in the target area on target.

-Ryan

[_SteelFalcon_]

28 minutes ago, RyanR said:

I agree this seems more correct. While practicing boresighting the MAVs, I set up a group of (what I thought were stationary) vehicles tightly packed together in the desert. Once the first MAV hit, they all scrambled. The vehicle my second MAV (in flight) was after just happened to hide right behind the smoking pile that was the first target. There was a hit, but not lethal. I agree, rippling MAVs off isn't the greatest way to go in some cases.

The TGP stays stabilized on the target area, so a TMS right should put the next MAV in the target area on target.

-Ryan

with large clusters or columns, I tend to shoot at the ones furthest apart if shooting multiple mavs. just to avoid the missiles interfering with eachother, like blowing up because of another one impacting close by or similar. Usually only set the TGP once in the rough area of the target and the rest is manually adjusted on the MAV page as soon as the next video feed is up.
well boresighted mavs have very little deviation, so you shouldnt need to adjust the TGP at that point.

[RyanR]

I'm "still learning" DCS, but the TGP seems to be working fine.

-"TMS up" SOI's the WPN screen.

-"TMS Right" does the auto handoff to the WPN page. and the TGP remains SOI. IR Mavericks lock up automatically if well boresighted.

So, you get both options now. TMS up, SOI's the WPN page so you can either fine tune the Maverick or lock up a CCD missile (which you have to manually lock). 'TMS right' will lock up IR MAV's so you can still ripple off a bunch.

I've also had fine luck with the three missile launchers. All 6 are taking a ground boresight OK.

-Ryan

 

 

[RyanR]

23 hours ago, _SteelFalcon_ said:

with large clusters or columns, I tend to shoot at the ones furthest apart if shooting multiple mavs. just to avoid the missiles interfering with eachother, like blowing up because of another one impacting close by or similar. Usually only set the TGP once in the rough area of the target and the rest is manually adjusted on the MAV page as soon as the next video feed is up.
well boresighted mavs have very little deviation, so you shouldnt need to adjust the TGP at that point.

 

I'm learning this! Sounds stupid, but it took me a while to realize what it means that DCS simulates the avionics and not "just the weapon".

-Ryan

[Raptor9]

A detail that I believe may have been overlooked in this discussion is that there is no requirement to display the WPN format on either MFD when intending to perform an AUTO handoff from the TGP to the AGM-65D/G missiles. If the WPN format is not displayed on either MFD, the SOI will remain on TGP allowing you to engage the target using the AUTO handoff mode from the TGP format alone.

Only if the WPN format is displayed will the SOI be moved when pressing TMS Forward to enter POINT track with the TGP, which would be necessary when using MAN handoff anyway, or if using the FCR for a handoff.

[_SteelFalcon_]

while that is true, AUTO handoff mostly fails at or close to max range of the mav, leaving it in break lock stage and requires resetting the seeker. or it locks up the street lamp next to it. The Auto handoff is rather useless therefore

[RyanR]

3 hours ago, _SteelFalcon_ said:

while that is true, AUTO handoff mostly fails at or close to max range of the mav, leaving it in break lock stage and requires resetting the seeker. or it locks up the street lamp next to it. The Auto handoff is rather useless therefore

Just keep hitting TMS-right from the SOI'd TGP, and IR Mavericks will eventually grab the target. Even in the break-lock condition.... but you're not going to get it to work far out. With auto hand-off, you can get 2-3 shots off in a pass, once you have the target area figured out. And assuming there's no AAA.....  

-Ryan

[_SteelFalcon_]

5 hours ago, RyanR said:

Just keep hitting TMS-right from the SOI'd TGP, and IR Mavericks will eventually grab the target. Even in the break-lock condition.... but you're not going to get it to work far out. With auto hand-off, you can get 2-3 shots off in a pass, once you have the target area figured out. And assuming there's no AAA.....  

-Ryan

Thing is: how would i know if i need to reset the seeker if it either is in break lock or locked on the wrong thing, when the wpn page isn‘t open for me to even verify? While it may probably work in an ideal scenario, 1 lonely target in the wide desert, this doesnt sound safe at all for employing a weapon. It‘d make sense to have the wpn page open for employment in any case, and with dms left/right you can access the other pages instantly after weapon launch anyway.

[RyanR]

11 hours ago, _SteelFalcon_ said:

Thing is: how would i know if i need to reset the seeker if it either is in break lock or locked on the wrong thing, when the wpn page isn‘t open for me to even verify? While it may probably work in an ideal scenario, 1 lonely target in the wide desert, this doesnt sound safe at all for employing a weapon. It‘d make sense to have the wpn page open for employment in any case, and with dms left/right you can access the other pages instantly after weapon launch anyway.

 

Oh, I agree. You can't run a MAV without the WPN page.

-Ryan

 

[HateDread]

On 2/28/2024 at 4:34 PM, Sn0wMan4 said:

Both launchers are supposed to support it but only the single one actually does. However, you're not supposed to do this in practice because you can't verify the 2nd target when you launch. You should just lock both and use missile step between shots.

 

Just for my knowledge - do the Mavs hold their lock even when you switch stations? I swear I tried this after you said the above and had trouble; should it work with the LAU-88s as well? Not actually "ripple" fire/RP option, just locking with one Mav per station.
EDIT: If you can lock this way with one from each station, can you switch from that one missile to the other and back, instead of cycling all 4-6 Mavs?

On 3/6/2024 at 8:43 AM, RyanR said:

I'm "still learning" DCS, but the TGP seems to be working fine.

-"TMS up" SOI's the WPN screen.

-"TMS Right" does the auto handoff to the WPN page. and the TGP remains SOI. IR Mavericks lock up automatically if well boresighted.

So, you get both options now. TMS up, SOI's the WPN page so you can either fine tune the Maverick or lock up a CCD missile (which you have to manually lock). 'TMS right' will lock up IR MAV's so you can still ripple off a bunch.

I've also had fine luck with the three missile launchers. All 6 are taking a ground boresight OK.

-Ryan

 

 

Also want to signal boost this as I looked over it.

If you're complaining about the TMS Up behaviour switching SOI to WPN, I get it - I'm not used to it and it doesn't feel like an "upgrade" if you used Auto hand-off a lot, BUT you can still get that behaviour! Use TMS Right! 

Saying that again - if you want TGP to stay SOI while performing Auto handoff to Mavs, even with the WPN page up, use TMS RIGHT.

(Not sure it's 100% identical to the _old_ TMS Up Auto handoff flow, but it seems to work pretty well?)

Edited March 8 by HateDread

[Hobel]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb HateDread:

should it work with the LAU-88

Not with Lau-88 but with Lau-88A it should work. 

[LastRifleRound]

There's a bug burried in an intentional (though possibly not correct) change. 

AUTO target handoffs are bugged. The handoff is only attempted the first time you TMS up on the TGP, whether successful or not. SOI then changes to WPN. If you undesignate (TMS aft), then DMS down to make TGP SOI again, any subsequent TMS ups will NOT engage the handoff, and will instead only change SOI. The only way to get it working again is to cycle the modes to VIS and BORE back to PRE

EDIT: just read the post above about TMS right...maybe intentional then? Will check it out tonight.

Edited March 8 by LastRifleRound

[Furiz]

2 hours ago, LastRifleRound said:

There's a bug burried in an intentional (though possibly not correct) change. 

AUTO target handoffs are bugged. The handoff is only attempted the first time you TMS up on the TGP, whether successful or not. SOI then changes to WPN. If you undesignate (TMS aft), then DMS down to make TGP SOI again, any subsequent TMS ups will NOT engage the handoff, and will instead only change SOI. The only way to get it working again is to cycle the modes to VIS and BORE back to PRE

EDIT: just read the post above about TMS right...maybe intentional then? Will check it out tonight.

 

I noticed that when TGP is SOI and TMS FWD is pressed it will auto handoff and switch SOI to WPN page, then if you TMS AFT once it will break lock on WPN page, you have to TMS AFT second time to reset Mav seeker, switch SOI to TGP and you can either TMS FWD or if TGP is still in POINT TRACK you can TMS RIGHT to attempt the auto handoff again.

TMS RIGHT auto handoff doesn't work for me if TGP is not in POINT TRACK mode.

[Raptor9]

There are some inconsistent handoff behaviors that we are working to improve internally.

[Nedum]

On 3/4/2024 at 7:43 AM, Furiz said:

Yeah, do them with Maverick only.

No, you really don't need to switch back to TGP, you can re-designate with Maverick.

Cause when you designate you should check if the target is good, then if it is good you should fire, if not you need to undesignate and you can't do that with TGP.

Hm?

I can't follow you. I couldn't check if the wrong target was selected without the WPN becomes SOI before the change?

I think I could do so without making the Weapon Page SOI. I did all the workload (Point-Track) within the TGP page, and after I was sure it was the right target, I was switching manually to the WPN page and did the fine-tuning, if needed, and after that I rifled.

Now I am forced for every point track change to switch back from the weapon Page, and I really want to know for what the extra workload is good for!?

If there is a "hidden" feature that will do godlike things, please tell me. But right now I can't see any benefit coming from that new behavior.

[Furiz]

6 hours ago, Nedum said:

I can't follow you. I couldn't check if the wrong target was selected without the WPN becomes SOI before the change?

And if it was wrong target what did you do?

6 hours ago, Nedum said:

I think I could do so without making the Weapon Page SOI. I did all the workload (Point-Track) within the TGP page, and after I was sure it was the right target, I was switching manually to the WPN page and did the fine-tuning, if needed, and after that I rifled.

So whats the difference? It only switches it auto for you.

If you get the wrong target you needed to undesignate and fine tune anyway. You can't undesignate Mav with TGP as SOI right?

 

And as Raptor said they are still working on handoffs, so I guess we will see more tweaks and I'm betting TMS RIGHT will see better use.

[Hobel]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Furiz:

And if it was wrong target what did you do?

when tgp is soi, "TMS right" should reset the maverick seeker. 

[RyanR]

Maybe I'm lucky, since I'm a newbie. The original documentation says TMS right is for the handoff to the maverick seeker. Once the TGP is in point mode, you don't have to hit TMS-up anymore. Point the TGP (soi'd) at whatever you don't like, and then TMS right.

Things I've found: if you're waaaaaay out, the TGP just won't do the above. You gotta be like 20 miles out just to begin. Beyond that, the TGP won't "stick" to moving vehicles. Obviously, you have to be under 10nm to even think of getting the MAV to lock up.

Also in the manual, only IR mavericks will auto-lock from a TMS-right. TV Mavericks have to be locked up from the WPN page. Thus, you want to TMS *up* from the targeting pod to get to the WPN page to lock those.

I've had good luck with both LU-88 and LU-88A's.

My only grumple right now is that boresighting mavericks requires an "official" object to lock on to. Static objects don't count. This gives you precious few places to get tuned up in campaigns.

-Ryan

[Furiz]

2 hours ago, Hobel said:

when tgp is soi, "TMS right" should reset the maverick seeker. 

Yes, but nothing will change, Mav will just lock the same wrong target again so it needs to be manually slewed anyway.

[_SteelFalcon_]

1 hour ago, RyanR said:

My only grumple right now is that boresighting mavericks requires an "official" object to lock on to. Static objects don't count. This gives you precious few places to get tuned up in campaigns.

any building works. I usually boresight them on a town on the way out. or if i head out to sea, i circle the AF once and use a hangar or the tower to bsgt.