Gazelle just falling out of the sky in air starts

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

In this attached track of a custom made mission, I enter the M (and later L) versions of the Gazelle in air starts. But very soon, the engine just quits, various cautionary lights come on, and the Gazelle loses power and falls out of the sky. Really puzzled. What am I missing here?

For info: Hotas throttle pushes forward to increase collective. Engine failure option turned off in the Special options (made no difference on or off). Sand filter was turned on after entering pit (made no difference on or off. I have set 40% fuel in both M and L Gazelles to make it lighter at 89% weight. South Atlantic map 10deg C. Unlimited weapons set.

SA342 Falling Out of Sky.trk

Edited March 4, 2024 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[Shadok]

rotor brake off?

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

57 minutes ago, Shadok said:

rotor brake off?

The rotor brake is forward (released). Fuel flow lever is also forward (opened). Mission starts in the air.

[MAXsenna]

In this attached track of a custom made mission, I enter the M (and later L) versions of the Gazelle in air starts. But very soon, the engine just quits, various cautionary lights come on, and the Gazelle loses power and falls out of the sky. Really puzzled. What am I missing here?

For info: Hotas throttle pushes forward to increase collective. Engine failure option turned off in the Special options (made no difference on or off). Sand filter was turned on after entering pit (made no difference on or off. I have set 40% fuel in both M and L Gazelles to make it lighter at 89% weight. South Atlantic map 10deg C.

SA342 Falling Out of Sky.trk

I'll have a look when I get home. Have you bound the fuel lever to an axis?

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[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Just now, MAXsenna said:

I'll have a look when I get home. Have you bound the fuel lever to an axis?

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

Yes I did bind the fuel lever to a small slider. So I did check and the fuel lever in the sim is fully forward as can be seen in the track. 

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Ok I found the problem! The fuel flow lever was bound to my warthog throttle grey slider for both pilot and copilot. Even though it was fully forward in the sim pit, the axis was a bit jittery (hardware issue) and any reduction in fuel flow caused the engine problems. So I removed the binding for the pilot first and everything was ok when in the pilot seat. But I could still move the sim lever as pilot (using the grey warthog lever) because it was still bound in the copilot bindings and that caused the engine to fail again. (I understand this is inherent in the pilot/copilot bindings - some pilot bindings will work when you are copilot even when they aren't bound in the copilot settings and vice versa.) So I removed the fuel lever binding for the copilot as well and now the problem is gone.

But I am curious. Why does a momentary short move backwards of the fuel lever cause these engine problems? And even if I promptly return the lever fully forward, I cannot recover from it though the AI is able to (when I jump into another Gazelle).    

[Slippa]

Glad you got it sorted. I haven’t flown mine since they updated it, hope I remember to check my bindings when I do.

Wonder how many people will be experimenting trying to recover after cutting the fuel for a second now.

[MAXsenna]

Ok I found the problem! The fuel flow lever was bound to my warthog throttle grey slider for both pilot and copilot. Even though it was fully forward in the sim pit, the axis was a bit jittery (hardware issue) and any reduction in fuel flow caused the engine problems. So I removed the binding for the pilot first and everything was ok when in the pilot seat. But I could still move the sim lever as pilot (using the grey warthog lever) because it was still bound in the copilot bindings and that caused the engine to fail again. (I understand this is inherent in the pilot/copilot bindings - some pilot bindings will work when you are copilot even when they aren't bound in the copilot settings and vice versa.) So I removed the fuel lever binding for the copilot as well and now the problem is gone.

But I am curious. Why does a momentary short move backwards of the fuel lever cause these engine problems? And even if I promptly return the lever fully forward, I cannot recover from it though the AI is able to (when I jump into another Gazelle).    

I have found that sliders should be set as sliders. Maybe that's the jittering you see? And in the Gazelle, (I use the Warthog, as I have a collective), it's pretty smart to have a deadzone for the fuel lever, to make sure it gets to 100.
And I do see the behaviour you see, when I have forgotten to push the levers forward in a hotstart, I usually just restart the misson, because it takes forever to spool up.

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[Hiob]

Things like that are why  - apart from HOTAS related stuff - I tend to just use the clickable cockpit.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

50 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

I have found that sliders should be set as sliders. Maybe that's the jittering you see? And in the Gazelle, (I use the Warthog, as I have a collective), it's pretty smart to have a deadzone for the fuel lever, to make sure it gets to 100.

It was set as a slider with deadzone and reduced Y sat to make sure it goes betw 0-100 but that warthog lever of mine is a bit finicky and requires recalibration after some time. It wouldn't have been an issue if the Gazelle didn't die from 1-2 secs of just a slight fuel lever movement. Not sure why that is though.   
 

18 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Things like that are why  - apart from HOTAS related stuff - I tend to just use the clickable cockpit.

Yeah I know what you mean, lol

[Ramsay]

On 3/4/2024 at 9:03 AM, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

It wouldn't have been an issue if the Gazelle didn't die from 1-2 secs of just a slight fuel lever movement. Not sure why that is though.

The Engine shuts down with the FUEL LEVER if the "Starter" switch is in the middle ARRET/OFF position.

When in flight - the "Starter" switch should be UP i.e. in the MARCHE/ON/RUN position.

Currently the Gazelle spawns with the "Starter" switch in the incorrect ARRET/OFF position, so it needs moving to MARCHE when selecting an air spawned or hot started Gazelle.

Edited March 13, 2024 by Ramsay

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

5 hours ago, Ramsay said:

The Engine shuts down with the FUEL LEVER if the "Starter" switch is in the middle ARRET/OFF position.

When in flight - the "Starter" switch should be UP i.e. in the MARCHE/ON/RUN position.

Currently the Gazelle spawns with the "Starter" switch in the incorrect ARRET/OFF position, so it needs moving to MARCHE when selecting an air spawned or hot started Gazelle.

 

Thanks! That solved it. 
(Caution warnings go away when I push the fuel lever fully forward again. Just have to flip the AP switch back up.) 

Seems the 3-position starter switch is an old issue discussed here and elsewhere. Not sure if they ever found the right answer. But as far as the sim is concerned, as you mentioned, the switch should remain in the up position. I find it strange still that a combo of fuel lever back slightly momentarily with the starter switch in the Off or Vent position could end the Gazelle in mid flight.  

Edited March 14, 2024 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[MAXsenna]

Thanks! That solved it. 
(Caution warnings go away when I push the fuel lever fully forward again. Just have to flip the AP switch back up.) 

Seems the 3-position starter switch is an old issue discussed here and elsewhere. Not sure if they ever found the right answer. But as far as the sim is concerned, as you mentioned, the switch should remain in the up position. I find it strange still that a combo of fuel lever back slightly momentarily with the starter switch in the Off or Vent position could end the Gazelle in mid flight.  

I'm not sure about the OFF position, while I guess Vent means "ventilation", to get rid of any left fuel after a false start. Bad idea in flight I guess.
Cheers!

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[KoN]

I'm still not convinced this bird is out of beta after seven years . 

[virgo47]

I also discovered the problem with a tiny movement of the fuel flow lever back shutting down the helo without any way to fix it. If the starter switch is ON (which, as previously mentioned, is NOT by default when hot starting), no problem, the RPM goes up again. But, strangely, if it's not ON, and it starts to shut down because of the tiniest fuel flow lever movement - putting starter ON at this moment does not help. This is quite frustrating and confusing really.

I had the lever on HOTAS axis, but (again, as mentioned in this thread) this is obviously a wrong decision for this helo.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

I find levers bound to a hotas axis are usable provided your hotas lever works well and is calibrated. My warthog grey throttle lever doesn't go the full range despite calibration and even changes over time. So I've set the axis tuning to 'no slider', 'no curvature', X (50), Y (100), Deadzone (0), so it always ensures 0-100% full range in the sim with adequate buffer (X=50) for when it decides to run off a little. So my lever axis profile ends up looking like a mirrored 'Z'.  

[virgo47]

15 hours ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

I find levers bound to a hotas axis are usable provided your hotas lever works well and is calibrated. My warthog grey throttle lever doesn't go the full range despite calibration and even changes over time. So I've set the axis tuning to 'no slider', 'no curvature', X (50), Y (100), Deadzone (0), so it always ensures 0-100% full range in the sim with adequate buffer (X=50) for when it decides to run off a little. So my lever axis profile ends up looking like a mirrored 'Z'.  

I half agree and half not here. I agree that lever bound to axis is fine as long as the axis is reliable (no jitter), or you play around the problems as you did.

I personally use thumbwheel on the STECS, which is not super ergonomics, but good enough for the throttle in UH-1H - and I use it just for fun when I want to practice governor failure - when four axis to control is not enough and you want the fifth .

But I'm a newbie with Gazelle, I don't even see a governor switch there, so for me any precise control of this lever is not necessary - keys are enough.

I use that feature that syncs the axis to cockpit controls and if I left the axis for fuel flow in the wrong position for Gazelle (e.g. playing a different plane before), I'd immediately found out, I'd need to fix the physical position of the axis - and annoyingly, restart the mission, because of the Starter switch not being ON.

So, yes, it works with axis, and if your axis is reliable, it works well - but with cockpit sync you need to double-check your axes (or at least this axis) before starting/unpausing the mission.

That said, is it really practical and/or necessary to have it on HOTAS axis? Do you use fuel flow for something in other situations than startup and shutdown? (Of course, it is still a valid personal preference. Whatever works for whoever.)

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

15 hours ago, virgo47 said:

That said, is it really practical and/or necessary to have it on HOTAS axis? Do you use fuel flow for something in other situations than startup and shutdown? (Of course, it is still a valid personal preference. Whatever works for whoever.)

I actually stopped using my hotas lever with the Gazelle but I still use it for the throttle in the UH-1H, Apache and Ka50. It works with the above axis tuning but Pg Up/Dn (or whatever keys) is probably better. I was just trying to find a use for the hotas lever  

[MAXsenna]

I actually stopped using my hotas lever with the Gazelle but I still use it for the throttle in the UH-1H, Apache and Ka50. It works with the above axis tuning but Pg Up/Dn (or whatever keys) is probably better. I was just trying to find a use for the hotas lever  

Chuckle! Same as me. Just wanted to make use of some unused sliders. I did do it a little different than you, as the Gazelle is a little picky in regards to the fuel lever. You definitely want everything that is not a stick setup as a slider, but no curves. Then I added a tiny deadzone at "full throttle", so the fuel lever will always be at 100, and then be able to physically push it a little further. I do the same for my K-51 collective, so I'm sure it as 0 when all the way down. And I change the saturation, because the collective have a very large physical travel.
Cheers!

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[Astralnut]

I find the M doesn't have the power to hover anymore. I pulled into a hover and it just kept falling. I had to pull full colllective and then the pedal had no authority and the engine overspeeded and died. Throttles and Rotor set correctly and no bind conficts.

[razo+r]

5 minutes ago, Astralnut said:

I find the M doesn't have the power to hover anymore. I pulled into a hover and it just kept falling. I had to pull full colllective and then the pedal had no authority and the engine overspeeded and died. Throttles and Rotor set correctly and no bind conficts.

Weight? Outside air temperature? Your altitude? Got a short track? Have you tried the solution that fixed the problem for OP?

Edited November 13, 2024 by razo+r

[MAXsenna]

I find the M doesn't have the power to hover anymore. I pulled into a hover and it just kept falling. I had to pull full colllective and then the pedal had no authority and the engine overspeeded and died. Throttles and Rotor set correctly and no bind conficts.

Track please.

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