Fulda Gap

[TomCruise]

What about a Germany Map from the 1980. Fulda Gap and other scenarios.
 

With the new Mig-23 from Razbam and the Bo-105 i think it‘s time for that map.

Mig-21, Mirage F1, Hind, Huey…

 

 

[MAXsenna]

Sure. It's been requested many times before!
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[bies]

Add A-7E, MiG-29A, Tornado IDS, F-14, F-4E, Gazelle M, MiG-21bis and many more.

According to the last polls Fulda Gap and Vietnam are the most requested maps.

[upyr1]

I say if we're going to get the Fulda Gap, don't limit it to a late cold war 1980s version. I say let's get 2 or 3 version.

The late version you requested would be awesome no argument there. It would be great for the F-4, MiG-21 and MiG-23 the MiG-29 might be great but we'll need early model F-teens to be 100% realistic 

I would also include an early 1940s/50s version for the F-86 and MiG-15 and WWII leftovers like the La-7 and F-51.

Then depenpending on how different it would from the late version a 1960 version for the MiG-19 and F-100.  

Edited March 28 by upyr1

[Dragon1-1]

The problem with other variants is that this area changed massively during Cold War, and especially between WWII and Cold War. As this was expected to be the primary front of WWIII, updating hardware and infrastructure on it was a priority. Germany, especially in the West Germany, developed rapidly, and East Germany had a pretty solid industry, too (people often note that the West got BMWs and East got Trabants, but they conveniently leave out the numbers on how many people got a Trabant, versus how many could afford a BMW). Post-WWII reconstruction meant the area was quite dynamic. So I think that yes, if you want to make the area without a huge amount of work, you have to pick a time period and focus on it. 80s is probably best right now.

The maps currently in development share one notable property: they're all in developing world, and as such the urban areas don't change that much. The differences between Soviet-era Afghanistan and 2000s-era Afghanistan would be mostly concentrated in Kabul, which probably grew a bit since then. In Germany, several locations would be barely recognizable between the two maps, and even road layout might change.

[upyr1]

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

The problem with other variants is that this area changed massively during Cold War, and especially between WWII and Cold War. As this was expected to be the primary front of WWIII, updating hardware and infrastructure on it was a priority.

This is exactly why I want diffent variants of the Map, it was expected to be the primary front during World War III during the cold war and we have a nice line up of cold war planes.

First we have the F-86E and MiG-15 Bis which etners service around 1950/1 ish 

Then the MiG-19P and F-100 which we have in the works would place us circa 1960

The F-4 and MIG-21 we have are 1970s versions  so they would be great for the 1980s map and the same holds true with the Mirage F1 and F-104

I'm not saying it would be easy to do the Fulda Gap right I'm just saying  every cold war module would work with the Fulda Gap. 

 

[Northstar98]

Would love a 1980s north and/or central Germany map. Easily the map that makes the most sense given our current modules and assets and a very important theatre during the Cold War.

[Dragon1-1]

You may want them, but realistically, that's not what you'll be getting even if ED makes such a map. In fact, you'd be lucky to just find enough information to make one of those, as pre-Google Maps maps and photos are notoriously difficult to find. The area had probably been photographed enough by spy satellites that you might have enough declassified photos to make a 1980 version. For the earlier ones, I doubt it.

In practice, given the effort required, you would be looking at three full price maps, and ED generally doesn't do it that way.

[Northstar98]

7 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

You may want them, but realistically, that's not what you'll be getting even if ED makes such a map. In fact, you'd be lucky to just find enough information to make one of those, as pre-Google Maps maps and photos are notoriously difficult to find. The area had probably been photographed enough by spy satellites that you might have enough declassified photos to make a 1980 version. For the earlier ones, I doubt it.

In practice, given the effort required, you would be looking at three full price maps, and ED generally doesn't do it that way.

I'll certainly take a modern day map, so long as all the Cold War era airfields are present in Cold War configuration (and sites like this will help). Here, I'd much rather compromise that not do it at all, given just how much fits and how significant a theatre it is in a Cold War gone hot scenario.

 

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

On 3/27/2024 at 6:26 PM, TomCruise said:

What about a Germany Map

Please use the search function instead, and feel free to bump one of the many existing threads: that will give it more posts per thread which in turn increases the chances of it getting noticed by ED as "wow, the community must really want this".
Fragmentation doesn't help.

[lmp]

5 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

You may want them, but realistically, that's not what you'll be getting even if ED makes such a map. In fact, you'd be lucky to just find enough information to make one of those, as pre-Google Maps maps and photos are notoriously difficult to find. The area had probably been photographed enough by spy satellites that you might have enough declassified photos to make a 1980 version. For the earlier ones, I doubt it.

In practice, given the effort required, you would be looking at three full price maps, and ED generally doesn't do it that way.

Is 1960s Germany worse than 1940s Normandy in this regard though?

1950s-1960s Germany would be awesome because the early Cold War jets really, really need a map (and some period appropriate units). I adore my MiG-15 but it's difficult to do much with it except for dogfighting Sabres over not very appropriate terrain. The MiG-19P and a number of upcoming jets (MiG-17, F-100, G.91...) would also fit in great.

1980s Germany... I don't think I need to sell anyone on this idea.

Edited March 28 by lmp

[Dragon1-1]

42 minutes ago, lmp said:

Is 1960s Germany worse than 1940s Normandy in this regard though?

Could be. WWII vintage photos, including air recon imagery and press articles, are relatively plentiful. I doubt Germany in 1960s was mapped and imaged nearly as thoroughly as Normandy was. 

Early Cold War jets could fight on a Korea map, which should be sufficiently documented (because again, wartime photos). I'm just not seeing 1960s Germany being made, especially since we actually have very little of Korean War era hardware, particularly cutting edge stuff. Korean War itself would be easier, because aside from early jets, very little post-WWII tech was used.

[upyr1]

15 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Could be. WWII vintage photos, including air recon imagery and press articles, are relatively plentiful. I doubt Germany in 1960s was mapped and imaged nearly as thoroughly as Normandy was. 

Early Cold War jets could fight on a Korea map, which should be sufficiently documented (because again, wartime photos). I'm just not seeing 1960s Germany being made, especially since we actually have very little of Korean War era hardware, particularly cutting edge stuff. Korean War itself would be easier, because aside from early jets, very little post-WWII tech was used.

The Korean war ened in 1953, so I don't see why the lack of Korean era assets would be that big of a problem for the 1960s map. For the 1960s map I would focus on fleshing out Vietnam era asset so 1965-75 given what we have currently in DCS and lined up module-wise  this would be slightly harder than the 1980s assets.  As for the early cold war map (1940s/50s) the first place to start IMHO would be the late World War II Soviet assets then on to post war equipment for both sides. 

[Dragon1-1]

7 hours ago, upyr1 said:

The Korean war ened in 1953, so I don't see why the lack of Korean era assets would be that big of a problem for the 1960s map.

It would not. Utter lack of 1960s assets would be a problem for that map, because Korea was, for most part, gear from 1940s. We'll have a total of two aircraft (MiG-19 and F-100) from the 60s, and that's it. The asset pack would have to be built almost from scratch. Seeing as so far, Vietnam era efforts have focused on late period in the war, wishes for that particular period will be a pie in the sky for a long time.

[QuiGon]

What Wags says:

 

[upyr1]

7 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It would not. Utter lack of 1960s assets would be a problem for that map, because Korea was, for most part, gear from 1940s. We'll have a total of two aircraft (MiG-19 and F-100) from the 60s, and that's it. The asset pack would have to be built almost from scratch. Seeing as so far, Vietnam era efforts have focused on late period in the war, wishes for that particular period will be a pie in the sky for a long time.

True, and no matter what ED wants to do map wise, they need to focus on fleshing out the asset set. Looking at the modules we either have curntly or what is planned I think ED would be best off focusing on  assets for  1969-73 followed by 1951.

I selelected 1969-74 since that is the era most of our cold war modules are clustered

The A-1 entered service in 1945 and was retired in 1973.

The F-100 entered service in 1954 and was retired by the ANG in 1979

I believe the Phantoms we have entered service is a 1974 upgrade of variant that entered service in 1970.

I'm not sure about the exact blocks but the A-7E and A-6E entered service in 1970 and 1972

The Mirage f1 entered service in 1973,

Then with 1951 the goal would be to start with WWII left overs 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bies]

Any 1960s-1980s-ish Fulda Gap will be a good representation. Only a "modern day" skyscreaper futuristic architecture Germany, trying to 'imitate' Cold War, hot border, divided Germany would be a really bad choice. A gamebreaker. Without proper vibes/atmosphere.

Our Mirage 2000, AJS-37 are 1990s variants. Cold War 1980s Mirage 2000C and AJ-37 would be nice in the future.

A-7E, A-6E, Su-17M4, MiG-23MLA, MiG-29A, Tornado IDS, Bo-105, C-101, Gazelle L, Mi-24P, F-14A/B, L-39, Huey plus most of AI assets, AI aircrafts, SAMs, EW radars etc. are ~1980s variants.

Mirage F.1, MiG-21bis, IAI Kfir, F-5E, F-4E are 1970s variants. Still used during 1980s

MiG-17F, F-100, A-1, F-104, MiG-19, G.91R are likely 1950s/1960s variants.

MiG-15bis and F-86 are early 1950s.

[Silver_Dragon]

Has many history about Fulda Gap

https://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/Modern/FuldaGap

https://www.dupuyinstitute.org/blog/2016/04/28/is-the-fulda-gap-rhyming-or-echoing/

https://www.armchairdragoons.com/articles/research/fuldagermany77/

https://neverwasmag.com/2019/03/world-war-iii-without-missiles/

And others has "Baltic", "North German Plains", "Danube Front", "Italian front" and "South front".

Baltic:

Danube:

Italy:

Grecce and Turkey:

From:
https://alternate-timelines.com/thread/1876/maps-soviet-planning-invasion-europe

https://www.nato.int/cps/ru/natohq/declassified_138298.htm

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/cccp-war-plans.htm

Edited March 30 by Silver_Dragon

[peti]

On 3/27/2024 at 7:26 PM, TomCruise said:

What about a Germany Map from the 1980. Fulda Gap and other scenarios.
 

With the new Mig-23 from Razbam and the Bo-105 i think it‘s time for that map.

Mig-21, Mirage F1, Hind, Huey…

 

 

The F-4E we're getting can also work as an F-4F, also don't forget the Starfighter that is coming, in Germany known as "the Widowmaker" for reasons.

Personally think this map idea is great, we have lots of aircraft for it.

Edited March 30 by peti

[CarbonFox]

Would love to see Germany become a map, along with an F-111 to join the rest of the Cold War birds.

[Whiskey11]

Everyone is focused on the aircraft and tanks of a 80s WWIII scenario and In over here crying because the SA-4, early variants of the SA-2, SA-3, and SA-7 are all missing on the REDFOR side and Nike (All variants), Pershing MRBM, and a bunch of BLUFOR SAM systems are missing... as are a HUGE number of their associated EW and IFF radars... 

 

Fulda excites me greatly because of the potential history we didn't get... but SAM technology would need to improve DRASTICALLY to make it even close to realistic... or enough to suspend disbelief. 

Edited April 18 by Whiskey11

[Northstar98]

On 4/18/2024 at 4:22 AM, Whiskey11 said:

Everyone is focused on the aircraft and tanks of a 80s WWIII scenario and In over here crying because the SA-4, early variants of the SA-2, SA-3, and SA-7 are all missing on the REDFOR side and Nike (All variants), Pershing MRBM, and a bunch of BLUFOR SAM systems are missing... as are a HUGE number of their associated EW and IFF radars... 

 

Fulda excites me greatly because of the potential history we didn't get... but SAM technology would need to improve DRASTICALLY to make it even close to realistic... or enough to suspend disbelief.

No, don't worry I'm with you (mostly).

• SA-4? Yes, definitely.
• SA-7? Abso-bloody-lutely - it and the SA-4 are the only relevant single-digit SAMs missing from the theatre.
• Huge number of radars and IFF? Again abso-bloody-lutely, the P-37 and PRV-11 have been in game for aeons but only as non-functional eye-candy, it alone would be a big step forward. Also missing the 5N84A (P-14F) + NRZ-14, 5N87, P-12/12M/-18, P-40, PRV-9/16, -13 and 17 and a Parol version. Of course, we'd also need IADS functionality and it would be fantastic if we could get a more complete set of battery components for our Cold War air defences - PU-12 and the P-40 would do wonders for PVO-SV systems, OdaZ-828 could be reused for numerous electronics/operator cabins for a few of the single digit SAM systems etc.

However:

• For Nike, we're mainly missing just the conventionally armed MIM-14B/C Hercules. Ajax was older and not really relevant for the late Cold War, the rest are mostly for ABM defence, never stationed outside the US and kinda lacking a practical role in DCS (not to mention being nuclear armed).
• Pershing? Similar thing - it has a nuclear warhead and that's a big no-no for ED.
• Earlier versions of the SA-2 and -3? Personally, I'm fine with the variants we have (just so long as everything is coherent), they are missing a few battery components (transloaders - I know one has been teased for the SA-2, operator/electronics cabins and generators are the big 3).

 

With all that said, look what turned up in the CH-47F Pre-Order video:

 

Credit for u/Zanderzoo_ on hoggit for pointing this out, but this kinda looks like it could be a Cold War Germany map, depicting the inner German border between the GDR and the FRG - that observation tower in the first image (though looks a little short), kinda looks like a BT-9. Of course the helicopter and the much more modern M1A2 SEP v3 are out of place.

In the second image, the smaller bunker/pillbox kinda looks like it could be something like this, also found along the Inner German Border.

Edited April 20 by Northstar98

[Whiskey11]

2 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

No, don't worry I'm with you (mostly).

• SA-4? Yes, definitely.
• SA-7? Abso-bloody-lutely - it and the SA-4 are the only relevant single-digit SAMs missing from the theatre.
• Huge number of radars and IFF? Again abso-bloody-lutely, the P-37 and PRV-11 have been in game for eons but only as non-functional eye-candy, it alone would be a big step forward. Also missing the 5N84A (P-14F) + NRZ-14, 5N87, P-12/12M/-18, P-40, PRV-9/16, -13 and 17 and a Parol version. Of course, we'd also need IADS functionality and it would be fantastic if we could get a more complete set of battery components for our Cold War air defences - PU-12 and the P-40 would do wonders for PVO-SV systems, OdaZ-828 could be reused for numerous electronics/operator cabins for a few of the single digit SAM systems etc.

However:

• For Nike, we're mainly missing just the conventionally armed MIM-14B/C Hercules. Ajax was older and not really relevant for the late Cold War, the rest are mostly for ABM defence, never stationed outside the US and kinda lacking a practical role in DCS (not to mention being nuclear armed).
• Pershing? Similar thing - it has a nuclear warhead and that's a big no-no for ED.
• Earlier versions of the SA-2 and -3? Personally, I'm fine with the variants we have (just so long as everything is coherent), they are missing a few battery components (transloaders - I know one has been teased for the SA-2, operator/electronics cabins and generators are the big 3).

 

With all that said, look what turned up in the CH-47F Pre-Order video:

 

Credit for u/Zanderzoo_ on hoggit for pointing this out, but this kinda looks like it could be a Cold War Germany map, depicting the inner German border between the GDR and the FRG - that observation tower in the first image (though looks a little short), kinda looks like a BT-9. Of course the helicopter and the much more modern M1A2 SEP v3 are out of place.

In the second image, the smaller bunker/pillbox kinda looks like it could be something like this, also found along the Inner German Border.

 

Even if Pershing and Nike Zeus and other Nike versions weren't FUNCTIONAL, their bases were key bases in West Germany and were notable landmarks.  It'd be incomplete without it and the other sites... also... ANY East vs West German border map is going to be a SAM NIGHTMARE depending on the era chosen... certainly a modern conflict is very... err... out of place given the reunification but nothing is saying you couldn't "role play" it.  Regardless, if those images aren't just some assets plunked onto the Channel Map and we are getting a Fulda/East vs West German conflict map, I'll be happy. 

[Silver_Dragon]

More pics on CH-47F preview video.

[Northstar98]

56 minutes ago, Whiskey11 said:

Even if Pershing and Nike Zeus and other Nike versions weren't FUNCTIONAL, their bases were key bases in West Germany and were notable landmarks.  It'd be incomplete without it and the other sites

Oh, absolutely agreed! (Though I think Nike Hercules and possibly Ajax if there were any should be functional ground units that we can place in the mission editor, like any other SAM system).

Frankly, I find it rather baffling that outside of airbases, military POIs (especially things directly applicable to aircraft such as SAM and EWR sites) are somewhat of an afterthought on our maps, if they're a thought at all.

Syria somewhat improved on this, Sinai moreso but even with Syria it's not exactly done particularly accurately. PG and the Caucasus are as good as absent with only a few sites usable. I don't really see the point of map-object EWRs that we can't use etc.

1 hour ago, Whiskey11 said:

also... ANY East vs West German border map is going to be a SAM NIGHTMARE depending on the era chosen... certainly a modern conflict is very... err... out of place given the reunification but nothing is saying you couldn't "role play" it.

Yep fully agreed.

Though I figure that if a Cold War Germany map is planned, it'll most likely be modern day owing to the data, though if that's the case I hope we get all of the Cold War airbases, SAM, EWR and other relevant military points of interest present - there's enough resources online for just about all of it.