F15E Shop - Should it still be onsale?

[Hawkeye_UK]

Should this really still be being sold ED given that people away from discord will not be aware of any freeze on its development and the ongoing discussions. 

I add given it now seems like Razbam have lost some lead F15 developers (they have gone public with their resignations) and as such surely there comes a morality issue of still selling a product when you have resonable suspicion you may not be able to deliver the item as specified?

Probably worth a temporary hold on all further e-sales until you can hopefully resolve this issue and provide clear consumer direction.

 

[Beirut]

14 minutes ago, Hawkeye_UK said:

Should this really still be being sold . . . 

 

 

That is a fair question.

[Cab]

Worst case scenario, anyone buying a Razbam module after the dispute came to light yesterday has a very good justification for a refund.

[Njinsa]

That's not a worst case scenario as there's no refund option, someone already checked EULA.

The worst case scenario is far worse than RB suspending delivery of fixes and updates they have done in previous month or bailing out of DCS.

Hope we will never know the details since they both converge and have it sorted out.

 

Edited April 5, 2024 by Njinsa

[Beirut]

Perhaps it's an unwarranted concern - perhaps not - but I would like a guarantee that none of my bought & paid for RazBam modules will be deleted from the game.

 

We're in an age where we buy things but don't own things, we just kind of rent them and we're subject to all manner of decision making beyond our control.

[Q3ark]

I think it's too early to be speculating about taking the module off sale, as soon as they do that it's all over, people will be screaming for refunds.

Couple of weeks and this will all be a memory, they'll (ED and RB) have a chill weekend and come back to the table next week with cooler heads and sort it all out like adults.

[Slippa]

There are still modules that aren't being maintained properly for sale. Why stop with this?

I don't fancy buying anything more in this type of environment. I'm a bit late for that though as I own most of it and they've taken my money.

[Cab]

35 minutes ago, Njinsa said:

That's not a worst case scenario as there's no refund option, someone already checked EULA.

Yes, I know about the EULA. I still believe ED would give refunds (or store credit) under the conditions I stated.

But let's hope we don't need to find out.

[PLUTON]

Beirut said:
Perhaps this is an unwarranted concern - perhaps not - but I would like a guarantee that none of my purchased and paid for RazBam mods will be removed from the game.

We're in an age where we buy things but don't own them, we just rent them, and we're subject to all sorts of decision-making beyond our control.
I say:
for the modules Beirut is right we have nothing even if we have to pay for them, but like him and others I suppose I would like to continue to use my Razbam modules even in the state they are in today.

[Czar66]

I'm not comfortable speculating worst case scenario, refunds or anything given how tiny amount of data has been presented.

It is tragic given how good work has been put into the F-15E and both Harrier and M-2000 are beloved by many. Losing the support for either modules from RB is a heavy loss...

I hope agreements come into fruition and both parties are happy.

26 minutes ago, PLUTON said:

We're in an age where we buy things but don't own them, we just rent them, and we're subject to all sorts of decision-making beyond our control.
I say:
for the modules Beirut is right we have nothing even if we have to pay for them, but like him and others I suppose I would like to continue to use my Razbam modules even in the state they are in today.

You're correct.

Things are more complicated about that last part. Base DCS updates comes and things can break on modules. Their state is not static, regardless of being updated or not.

Again, I hope both parties can come into agreement. Nothing good will come out of this otherwise.

[Waxer]

4 hours ago, Hawkeye_UK said:

Should this really still be being sold ED given that people away from discord will not be aware of any freeze on its development and the ongoing discussions. 

I add given it now seems like Razbam have lost some lead F15 developers (they have gone public with their resignations) and as such surely there comes a morality issue of still selling a product when you have resonable suspicion you may not be able to deliver the item as specified?

Probably worth a temporary hold on all further e-sales until you can hopefully resolve this issue and provide clear consumer direction.

 

I was thinking the same thing. I am here after checking the store to see if it was still listed for sale and surprised to see that it is. I also sunk some cash into a Winwing F-15E throttle. And while the throttle is not useless going forwards, I would not have bought it if I had known that Razbam was going to throw toys out the DCS pram and let down all the customers that had pre-ordered its content.

[Alba57]

This already happened with the Hawk module a few years ago, and I think ED  said that the had changed the terms of the contract with the 3er parties to avoid the same situation twice, but not sure about that.

[bfr]

3 hours ago, Beirut said:

Perhaps it's an unwarranted concern - perhaps not - but I would like a guarantee that none of my bought & paid for RazBam modules will be deleted from the game.

 

We're in an age where we buy things but don't own things, we just kind of rent them and we're subject to all manner of decision making beyond our control.

The reality is that the core of DCS itself is an ever-moving train and for any given module then there is no guarantee it would still work down the line if no one is maintaining it.  I don't know what arrangement ED have with third parties in terms of being able to take over maintenance of released modules if the original developer pulls out, abandons, goes bust or whatever. As Alba57 alluded to, I hope there is some kind of provision in place given we've had one instance of this previously with the Hawk.

[tribbin]

12 minutes ago, Alba57 said:

This already happened with the Hawk module a few years ago, and I think ED  said that the had changed the terms of the contract with the 3er parties to avoid the same situation twice, but not sure about that.

ED does not have the code of the F-15, according to CptSmiley (RAZBAM).

[Johnny Dioxin]

39 minutes ago, Alba57 said:

This already happened with the Hawk module a few years ago, and I think ED  said that the had changed the terms of the contract with the 3er parties to avoid the same situation twice, but not sure about that.

They did tell us that. Whether it was just to calm any customer unease or to keep us buying, who knows - I guess at some stage we'll find out for sure, whether in this issue or a future one.

 

[Torndo78]

44 minutes ago, Alba57 said:

This already happened with the Hawk module a few years ago, and I think ED  said that the had changed the terms of the contract with the 3er parties to avoid the same situation twice, but not sure about that.

In this case, releasing an early access "flyable/playable" F15 , with no guarantee of being able to continue development/updates if the third party dev backed out for any reasons was simply making the same veao-Hawk mistake twice , at least for now, with the news available about the situation. ( until there are more official and detailed communications especially on the future of the module, which should be the first thing of interest to every buyer )

[mazex]

This whole debacle actually got me thinking about all the modules I have bought for DCS over the years. The core DCS platform is to 95% devloped in Moscow, with a mailbox in Switzerland. We then add a lot of really small teams around the world that develops modules mainly as a part time job... And we trust that they will really deliver the final products after years of development in early access mode. I really like the F15E module but it's far from done... 

[AbuMuqawama]

I got burned with the Hawk, if that happens a *second* time on a far larger scale (I've bought all of RB's modules) I'm not going to roll the dice anymore. Is there confirmation that if RB runs off, that we aren't going to be stuck with unusable products as with the Hawk incident? I think that confirmation one way or another would be of some value at this point.

[FullMetal_cooKie]

As new statements were posted on reddit, it seems that both parties have blown the bridges between eachother. I don't believe both parties will come to an agreement. Say goodbye to the F-15E and potentially other RB modules.

Edited April 5, 2024 by FullMetal_cooKie

[NineLine]

6 hours ago, Hawkeye_UK said:

Should this really still be being sold ED given that people away from discord will not be aware of any freeze on its development and the ongoing discussions. 

I add given it now seems like Razbam have lost some lead F15 developers (they have gone public with their resignations) and as such surely there comes a morality issue of still selling a product when you have resonable suspicion you may not be able to deliver the item as specified?

Probably worth a temporary hold on all further e-sales until you can hopefully resolve this issue and provide clear consumer direction.

 

We have no reason to believe the development of the F-15E will stop, so right now it is and will continue to stay in the E-Shop.