Any interesting or challenging flight dynamics?

[PilotMi8]

26 минут назад, Nealius сказал:

Nearly every real-world helo pilot, DCS SMEs included, who is active on various DCS-related social media content, has stated that VRS is overdone in sims. Not sure why this is still debated.

my opinion - everything is quite simple))
in reality, the pilot "long" before the instruments are indicated begins to feel the moment of the onset of this phenomenon. Namely, he feels how the acceleration value is unusually high downwards. But in the simulator, this feeling cannot be done in any way, only instruments... Therefore, for a virtual pilot who is not focused on the instruments, but is busy with other things (looking at the landing site, at obstacles, thinking about threats, etc.), i.e. whose attention is not carried away by the search for the moment of the onset of the vortex ring, he easily misses this moment.
I think that for a compromise, it is worth slightly moving the boundary of the onset of the phenomenon due to the limitations of the simulator..
This is reasoning "out loud")

[Guest]

Might another alternative be some kind of visual indicator like mild shaking, or even a little visual message that pops up when you are approaching the danger zone?

[PilotMi8]

1 минуту назад, wombat778 сказал:

Might another alternative be some kind of visual indicator like mild shaking, or even a little visual message that pops up when you are approaching the danger zone?

may be)

[Talisman_VR]

I feel vibrations through my vibrating seat cushion, HF8 or JetPad, in conjunction with SimShaker for Aviators software.  I highly recommend it.  I means I can keep my eyes outside the cockpit more. 

Links below:

 SimShaker for Aviators (simshaker-for-aviators.github.io)

Happy landings,

Talisman

[Diesel_Thunder]

I talked with a CH-46 pilot about how VRS retreating blade stall would manifest with tandem rotors, and he stated that generally the rear rotor would be first affected (it’s in the dirty air disturbed by the forward rotor), there’d be some vibration from the back of the aircraft, and the tail would start to drop. Being a tandem rotor, escape/recovery is in any safe direction.

EDIT: I described retreating bladed stall initially, and not VRS, but confused the two conditions. As noted in adrift_foolish1 's post below, VRS affects both rotors at the same time. Escape is to the left or right, whichever path is safer.

Edited September 6, 2024 by Diesel_Thunder

[Nealius]

9 hours ago, Talisman_VR said:

I feel vibrations through my vibrating seat cushion, HF8 or JetPad, in conjunction with SimShaker for Aviators software.  I highly recommend it.

Can't use sim-shaker equipment without getting complaints from the apartment downstairs. Nor the space for a giant racing rig in a 30sqm living space. Solutions like thes are only valid for detached home owners.

Edited August 14, 2024 by Nealius

[Andurula]

On 8/12/2024 at 8:38 AM, PilotMi8 said:

I will certainly accept your opinion 100% if you are a real pilot and tried these figures on a real CH-47D helicopter, and they came out completely differently for you or didn’t work out at all.

If not, then I will answer in detail.

 I agree with you that for early access, not all strength limitations of the helicopter design are implemented, as well as not all limitations on the helicopter systems (for example, hydraulic and fuel).
However, I am sure that in a real helicopter, the capabilities of the control system will allow you to do what you got on the virtual one. If the maneuvering characteristics differ - the radii of the trajectories of these maneuvers, angular speeds of rotation, then not significantly.
For example, the CH-53 easily performs both barrels and loops, despite the fact that it is a transport!))
The fact that no one does the aerobatic maneuvers you described on a real Chinook helicopter is a simple explanation. And you can easily figure this out yourself if you answer the question: for what task, bringing benefit according to the purpose of the helicopter, to do aerobatics on a real Chinook helicopter?

Any "loop" or "barrel" or as well as rotation around a vertical axis with exorbitant angular velocity on a real helicopter,  is a "minus" of several tens of hours of the fuselage and main rotor system resource.  Therefore, even on AH-64 Apache or Mi-28 99% of pilots do not train for this! It is expensive to maintain, given that the benefit of such maneuvers for a helicopter in combat is practically zero.

The only thing that can be useful and help in combat from the helicopter's aerobatics capabilities is the angular velocity of rotation along the bank (roll), and bit less often  - high pitch angular velocity. This will allow you to turn away from an or obstacle (or birds, or m.be burst of small arms fire)) in time or turn around faster in a mountain gorge.

In addition to the fact that when performing "loops" and "barrels" the fuselage and the main rotor system of helicopters are excessively loaded, there may be (or may not be) interruptions in the operation of the fuel and hydraulic systems. That is, it is desirable to have these systems prepared for such aerobatics during helicopter design. 

Let me remind you that in the flight model we simulate the most complete capabilities according to the aerodynamic characteristics of the helicopter and its control system. 
And of course, work on improving the flight models of helicopters and their control systems is still ongoing, but this is more a refinement of "details" and not at all the aerodynamic foundations of these models. Regarding the restrictions (limitations) on destructive overload, as well as on the operation of helicopter's systems under extreme conditions will be gradually added..

No.  I am not a "real Chinook pilot".  I am however a real Chinook maintenance engineer.  If you want to hear "real Chinook pilots" agree with me you don't have to look very hard.  While the control system in a "real Chinook" might be able to create the same motions as you have designed into your sim, the physical forces would rip it apart.  You correctly note that the inertial effects on the systems are not modelled at all.  The main fore and aft transmissions have a big problem with negative G maneuvers. Also, its very clear that aerodynamic forces on the fuselage are not at all modeled and the physics - overall- are poorly modeled.  Just point the nose straight down and note that the module just kinda hangs there before beginning to accelerate under the force of gravity.

As I posted earlier on this thread, its early access, there is work to be done and I can wait for the flight model to be improved. ED usually gets it right eventually.

Are you going to say the maneuvers demonstrated in this video are perfectly valid examples of the flight capabilities of a Chinook?  

 

[Andurula]

On 8/11/2024 at 9:16 PM, adrift_foolish1 said:

Thats the LCT. DASH should make it so you don't have to hold aft cyclic to maintain high speed flight.

You are entirely correct.  Its been a few years for me. The two systems are interconnected but the LCT's are actually doing the rotor head tilting.

[LuseKofte]

Things turn quick. 
Has this module secretly been updated? I can now manoeuvre it like a pro. 

My only fear is I trained myself to fly it with bad habits when new fm arrive. 
It took me a while to warm up. Now I can approach a sling cargo in full speed and stop at the right moment like I do in the mi 8. 
I got to fire up the mi 8 and see if the hook have messed up my normal chopper skills. 

[Talisman_VR]

10 hours ago, Nealius said:

Can't use sim-shaker equipment without getting complaints from the apartment downstairs. Nor the space for a giant racing rig in a 30sqm living space. Solutions like thes are only valid for detached home owners.

 

Hi Nealius,

Sorry if my links might have been confusing, but I am not talking about a giant racing rig and definitely not a base-shaker.  All I am talking about is a cushion for your seat that has 8 small electric motors (4 in the bottom and 4 at the back).  They make very little noise and should be apartment friendly.

Like this:

Or this:

Happy landings,

Talisman

Edited August 14, 2024 by Talisman_VR

[PilotMi8]

9 часов назад, Andurula сказал:

_. Also, its very clear that aerodynamic forces on the fuselage are not at all modeled and the physics - overall- are poorly modeled.  Just point the nose straight down and note that the module just kinda hangs there before beginning to accelerate under the force of gravity._

If the forces on the fuselage were not fully modeled, as you claim, then the helicopter could accelerate forward and sideways at the same rate, and also reduce the forward speed at the same rate (assuming the same angles of inclination of the rotors).
However, this is not even close: the helicopter's behavior during forward acceleration and sideways acceleration is very different, as is the case during deceleration.
I do not claim that the fuselage aerodynamics in the model are calculated with 100% accuracy, but I do claim that they are close to reality.
When you say that the physics of the model as a whole is poorly modeled, it would be good to get a numerical idea from you - how poorly. How to do it:
Add a comment to your video, or make a new video with the maneuver you have chosen in the model and describe it like this:
1) if the maneuver cannot be performed in principle (according to you) on a real helicopter, then describe it like this: this maneuver cannot be performed in reality for such and such a reason, because such and such will happen to the helicopter;
2) if the maneuver can be performed, but on a real helicopter, unlike in the model, the parameters of this maneuver are different, then describe it like this:
at such and such a second, the parameters turned out to have such and such a value, and in reality they should be no less than ... (such and such values), or no more than .. (such and such values), or between such and such values.
This will be constructive, it will be clear what you mean, and we will understand where we made a mistake, and this will help us a lot!

[Nealius]

2 hours ago, Talisman_VR said:

Hi Nealius,

Sorry if my links might have been confusing, but I am not talking about a giant racing rig and definitely not a base-shaker.  All I am talking about is a cushion for your seat that has 8 small electric motors (4 in the bottom and 4 at the back).  They make very little noise and should be apartment friendly.

That's more manageable, but still, it's not reasonable for us to need so much 3rd party peripherals in addition to basic flight controls and headtracking just to do basic flying.

Edited August 14, 2024 by Nealius

[Goggles]

VRS: the way they typically get into it, is approaching with a tailwind, the airspeed dropping and losing translational lift with what becomes an excessive sink rate while not in ground effect yet. As you are approching VRS, you start feeling the shaking. Those experts who operate in that mode will limit the sink rate to keep the shaking at the edge, which needs a lot more power. Normally, you approach with at headwind and that virtually elimitates the possibility of VRS, but there are circumstances where there is no other way of getting in. The other more innoculous way is attempting an approach without first determining the wind direction and approaching with a tailwind. 

[adrift_foolish1]

On 8/13/2024 at 1:39 PM, Diesel_Thunder said:

I talked with a CH-46 pilot about how VRS would manifest with tandem rotors, and he stated that generally the rear rotor would be first affected (it’s in the dirty air disturbed by the forward rotor), there’d be some vibration from the back of the aircraft, and the tail would start to drop. Being a tandem rotor, escape/recovery is in any safe direction.

Are you sure he wasnt talking about retreating blade stall? Vrs in twin rotor helicopters happens at the same time and escape is primarily to the left or right, since forward and aft movements affect collective pitch in the rotors.

[LuseKofte]

On 8/13/2024 at 12:55 PM, fjacobsen said:

I´m not saying that it doesn´t happen, I´m just saying that it is harder to get into, than what we experience in DCS.

Especially the Mi-8 is very prone to got into VRS.

The German colonel just told me that it isn´t something that happens very often, because it´s hard to get into using normal helicopter flight procedures.

MI 8 pilots several of them stated that MI 8 got its quirks in special when slowing down. 
Wonderful chopper but with character. 
I do not enter vrs easily in mi 8, in fact I do not enter it at all and without thinking about it. 
but I do in the chinook. 
You simply need to be trained. I flown mi 8 every day available with some brakes due to Kiowa and now chinook. I move roadblocks from one side to another of the runway. Getting muzzle memory for hours. It takes many hours to Even compare yourself to even remotely to real pilots. To be a sim pilot you need exclusive continuous serious training to put yourself in that position 

[Diesel_Thunder]

5 hours ago, adrift_foolish1 said:

Are you sure he wasnt talking about retreating blade stall? Vrs in twin rotor helicopters happens at the same time and escape is primarily to the left or right, since forward and aft movements affect collective pitch in the rotors.

You know, I think you are right. It's been a while since I've talked to them so I could have gotten them mixed up.

[47_Driver]

5 hours ago, Diesel_Thunder said:

You know, I think you are right. It's been a while since I've talked to them so I could have gotten them mixed up.

Retreating blade stall basically doesn't affect Tandem Rotor helicopters other than an increase in vibration. As @adrift_foolish1 pointed out, escape from Settling With Power or Vortex Ring State would be via lateral cyclic or pedal input along with a reduction in Thrust if altitude permits.

[Nealius]

Has anyone figured out how to taxi this thing with grace? I'm constantly getting into ground loops, having it turn the opposite direction I've fed in via the steering knob, having it refuse to respond to steering knob inputs, etc., with a left-turning tendency in general. 

[47_Driver]

2 hours ago, Nealius said:

Has anyone figured out how to taxi this thing with grace? I'm constantly getting into ground loops, having it turn the opposite direction I've fed in via the steering knob, having it refuse to respond to steering knob inputs, etc., with a left-turning tendency in general. 

I think this is an issue with DCS ground taxi modeling as a whole, exacerbated by this module's unique way of ground taxiing. Try 2 wheel taxiing works great. If you need some help check out the video I made on 2 wheel taxi on the 47Driver youtube channel.

Edited August 16, 2024 by Brickle
typo

[Rabies]

I have a buttkicker, this gives a physical alert to not only entering and leaving translational lift, but also if you were to enter VRS. This piece of kit, along with VR, gives great situational awareness of your a/c current situation.

[Zentaos]

10 hours ago, Brickle said:

I think this is an issue with DCS ground taxi modeling as a whole, exacerbated by this module's unique way of ground taxiing.

I agree. I run into issues taxiing as well. I find that if it's not responding to the steering knob, just tap the brakes a bit and it starts responding again. I've noticed from the outside view, that the left rear wheel free casters like it's supposed to, but when it stops responding to steering input the right rear wheel is dragging. 

[Whirley]

 

[Vee.A]

On 8/16/2024 at 9:55 AM, Zentaos said:

I agree. I run into issues taxiing as well. I find that if it's not responding to the steering knob, just tap the brakes a bit and it starts responding again. I've noticed from the outside view, that the left rear wheel free casters like it's supposed to, but when it stops responding to steering input the right rear wheel is dragging. 

Bind the steering knob center command, and get in the habit of using it. Since we don't have a spring loaded knob it's very easy to drag the wheel and have no idea what's happening unless you visually look at the knob constantly. The centering button helps a fair bit

[Hoirtel]

1 hour ago, Vee.A said:

Bind the steering knob center command, and get in the habit of using it. Since we don't have a spring loaded knob it's very easy to drag the wheel and have no idea what's happening unless you visually look at the knob constantly. The centering button helps a fair bit

I've bound the steering knob as an axis with a modifier to my pedals. I used the paddle on my joystick for the modifier. Whenever I hold the paddle I can steer with my feet. Not realistic I know, but then neither is using a keyboard or mouse.... 

[LuseKofte]

Some say it is too easy. In my opinion it isn’t. 

It should be possible to land on a static ship with back wheels and unload goods. 
I can’t click on crew choice and ask for unloading while keeping this beast on partly hoover. Maybe I am bad at it. 
I am not satisfied with my ability to fly straight and level. I fly MI 8 far better. I am not saying it’s anything wrong with the chopper. It can be all me. But I need manoeuvring assistance from crew to be able to place this chopper as famous pictures shows it can. It suppose to be easy to handle. Because the jobs it suppose to do is hard. I can’t see that is coming any time soon. I am not talking about fm. But crew cooperation. This might be a blast having multi crew