waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

16 hours ago, TKhaos said:

Well ED fixed the radar issue so it's irrelevant now and like I said, payment is between that coder and RB, his contract of employment was with them not ED.

If I do a private contract for someone they get a 7 or 30 day invoice depending on that nature of the work. If I don't get paid I don't do any further work. I would never work on a project for months without receiving any payment. If I worked for 'RB' I expect payment from 'RB' who I have the contract with, I don't expect 'ED' to pay me directly as their contract is with 'RB' and nothing to do with me as a third party. Regardless of their terms and conditions they should have enough funds to pay any employee or contractor regardless of how long it takes them to get payment, all that that should be factored in.

 

This has been explained numerous times, but the same culprits seem to keep forgetting that with some regularity.

This is the most basic framework of contract law the world over.

[TKhaos]

3 hours ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

This has been explained numerous times, but the same culprits seem to keep forgetting that with some regularity.

I was starting to think I was in the remake of Groundhog Day

[Nightdare]

21 hours ago, afnav130 said:

I will still stand by this. ED has never posted that they have paid in full the monies required for the module sales. Or if they have even paid a portion of it and when if not, when the payments stopped. 

ED has never posted that they pay anyone anything

You never saw "Hi all, we just earned $xxxxx.xx and paid $xxxxx.xx to Heatblur for selling xxx F4 modules"

So why should they now?

...Because you deserve to know? You demand acces to information which is between 2 businesses, and neither are yours

You are in no way, shape, or form in a position to demand this, nobody cares about your sense of entitlement and it has no value or influence regarding this matter

You wanted an explanation, you got that 5 pages ago, that you don't like that explanation is a you problem (in fairness, not just you, there seem to be a few more people that think their opinion somehow should dictate how ED and RB should settle the problem), most of us with a bit of business experience are seeing nothing out of the ordinary, no conspiracies, no Crime Syndicate corrupting justice, no "Goliath beating poor little David", just a dispute between 2 businesses that escalated

 

If you don't trust them, it's very simple: pull all your support and get rid of their product, how about you stand by that?, it's what I would do if I sincerely feel a business is scamming its subcontractors

Apparently you don't want to do that, so stop moaning about "ED's abuse of the little man", while being a willing "accomplice"

Edited August 18, 2024 by Nightdare

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Nightdare said:

most of us with a bit of business experience are seeing nothing out of the ordinary, no conspiracies, no Crime Syndicate corrupting justice, no "Goliath beating poor little David", just a dispute between 2 businesses that escalated

This 1000%.  I don’t know who’s right or wrong in this dispute, and I frankly don’t care. Disputes happen between businesses ALL the time and it’s no one’s business but theirs.  As a consumer all I care about is if/when I can expect products I bought to get updated again. Please ED and RB, do what you must to make that happen. 

[Nightdare]

12 minutes ago, wombat778 said:

 I don’t know who’s right or wrong in this dispute, and I frankly don’t care

 

Well, in a cost/benefit scenario, ED being in the wrong will have a lot more impact than RB being the offending party

The worst that can happen if RB loses, is we might lose a 3rd party developer and their modules (Though the latter may have already been secured by ED after the Hawk debacle)

But if ED turns out to have interpreted their own contract wrong, then things could really become bad for all DCS players or even DCS in its entirety

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Nightdare said:

But if ED turns out to have interpreted their own contract wrong, then things could really become bad for all DCS players or even DCS in its entirety

True, though my best guess is that whatever happened between ED and RB is pretty fact specific. My bet is that it’s gonna be something like RB is using the IP and wants to give ED a cut of X% pursuant to clause X.X, but ED believes that clause Y.Y applies and they are owed a cut of Y%.  Or RB was supposed to deliver x, y and z under the contact but ED feels that the z deliverable isn’t up to spec, etc etc.  

[Smashy]

44 minutes ago, Nightdare said:

 

You forgot the part of "The Mudhen Kingdom Construction Monies will be BamZam's, if BamZam reimburses us for our lost equipment used on competitors' Amusement Parks"

A rather important detail some people seem to forget about

 

 

Well, I was fourteen or fifteen deep in Natty Lights when I got my insider info so some details may have slipped past me.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

5 hours ago, TKhaos said:

I was starting to think I was in the remake of Groundhog Day

Yeah, one might start questioning their sanity.

Did I ever tell you the definition of insanity?

[Nightdare]

10 minutes ago, Smashy said:

Well, I was fourteen or fifteen deep in Natty Lights when I got my insider info so some details may have slipped past me.

 

Leaving stuff out kinda fuels the fire, BamZam leaving out the info why they weren't getting paid anymore, for instance

[Pipe]

4 hours ago, Nightdare said:

 

You forgot the part of "The Mudhen Kingdom Construction Monies will be BamZam's, if BamZam reimburses us for our lost equipment used on competitors' Amusement Parks"

A rather important detail some people seem to forget about

 

 

Is this an official update? How do yo know this? I didn’t see this in the official post. 
Are you posting on ED’s behalf? Asking for a friend..

[NineLine]

1 hour ago, Pipe said:

Is this an official update? How do yo know this? I didn’t see this in the official post. 
Are you posting on ED’s behalf? Asking for a friend..

All official communications are in the first post, everything else is just chatter and chit-chat. 

[felixx75]

On 8/17/2024 at 2:31 AM, afnav130 said:

If you read between the lines

Just don't do this. All that comes out is nonsense.

[afnav130]

12 hours ago, felixx75 said:

Just don't do this. All that comes out is nonsense.

Not true. People on one side have listed what they say happened. Period. Many times in fact. So one can take only 1 or 2 conclusions from that. 1) they are ALL lying through their teeth and should never ever be listened to again, or 2) what they are saying is pretty close to the truth or the complete truth period. 

I do find it quite interesting that the leaked chat between RB employee and a Heatblur employee is attacked as hearsay when in fact it was a legit conversation that far too many ignored or that will never change their stance on that. Quite frankly thats the only actual "evidence" that is out there and to ignore it is folly. Thats old news however and it won't change anyones mind who refuse to do so even when presented with that conversation. The usual, BS responses about it being fake, or useless or whatever will be thrown around. It's fine, this is the parent company of DCSs website, and a majority of members here are blindly in their corner. Newsflash, they aren't Razbam followers or any other 3rd party followers. It's to be expected.

Edited August 18, 2024 by afnav130

[Nightdare]

27 minutes ago, afnav130 said:

Not true. People on one side have listed what they say happened. Period. Many times in fact. So one can take only 1 or 2 conclusions from that. 1) they are ALL lying through their teeth and should never ever be listened to again, or 2) what they are saying is pretty close to the truth or the complete truth period. 

Popularity doesn't equal truth, it's how we got things like the stab in the back myth, the Rolling Stone r*pe on campus hoax

 

27 minutes ago, afnav130 said:

I do find it quite interesting that the leaked chat between RB employee and a Heatblur employee is attacked as hearsay when in fact it was a legit conversation that far too many ignored or that will never change their stance on that. Quite frankly thats the only actual "evidence" that is out there and to ignore it is folly.

Mind pointing out where Heatblur confirms this conversation took place?

Most of the Reddits concerning this 'story' appear to be deleted,... I wonder why?

 

27 minutes ago, afnav130 said:

Thats old news however and it won't change anyones mind who refuse to do so even when presented with that conversation. The usual, BS responses about it being fake, or useless or whatever will be thrown around. It's fine, this is the parent company of DCSs website, and a majority of members here are blindly in their corner. Newsflash, they aren't Razbam followers or any other 3rd party followers. It's to be expected.

Do you have confirmation from Heatblur (or even Razbam) that this conversation took place?!?

I'm no photoshop expert, but I can pretty easily fake a skype conversation between you and me without use of AI, asking how you managed to get Lee Harvey Oswald to the lost continent of Atlantis, to kill old yeller with the Tesseract.

If it isn't fake, either you show us the proof, and the only way for that is to have Heatblur confirm your 'story' or stop trying to kill the conversation by claiming everyone calls it fake, making you de facto the holder of truth

Edited August 18, 2024 by Nightdare

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, afnav130 said:

Not true. People on one side have listed what they say happened. Period. Many times in fact. So one can take only 1 or 2 conclusions from that. 1) they are ALL lying through their teeth and should never ever be listened to again, or 2) what they are saying is pretty close to the truth or the complete truth period. 

ORRR, perhaps the fact that those folks "on one side" are giving the same story -- means that we are getting "one side of the story."  Of COURSE the people on one side are gonna see things the same way. That does not in any way mean that story is more likely to be the full picture.  And it also does not mean that they are "lying through their teeth," just that they have a certain interpretation of events that may differ from ED's version.

Finally, I'll just note I am not aware of any "official" statements by Razbam other than the statements at the beginning of this chain. If Razbam is unwilling to stand behind what those people say and make them official, why should I be willing to give those gossipy statements any weight?  If Razbam wants to make an official statement, they are free to do so at any time. 

[-orlok-]

we also need to bear in mind that some posters may not exactly be acting in good faith.

it *does* seem, to me, to be a very messy and unfortunate situation but any "unofficial news" I'm going to take with a pinch of salt even if from a "trusted" source because I simply don't have a full 360 knowledge of what *all* the facts are.

that's not to say any/all leaks are false or untrue but they're only a segment of a far greater picture.

mix all this with a few folks who might be pre disposed towards or against one or both parties and things can really get out of hand.

its a horrid, unfortunate mess, trust has been lost for some and for others a seemingly last straw. 

me? I'm keeping my tentacles crossed for an amicable solution.

DCS is a weird dysfunctional soup of a sim, but it's a dysfunctional soup of a sim I get a lot of pleasure out of.

I want to see it become the sim it could/can be.

[TKhaos]

1 hour ago, afnav130 said:

Not true. People on one side have listed what they say happened. Period. Many times in fact. So one can take only 1 or 2 conclusions from that. 1) they are ALL lying through their teeth and should never ever be listened to again, or 2) what they are saying is pretty close to the truth or the complete truth period. 

While they may have repeatedly said it, what proof did they offer to back up their claims? Has anyone seen irrefutable, hard evidence, such as official documentation to back these claims up? I could literally spend the next year telling people I'm Joe Biden's left leg and according to your theory if I say it enough it must be true.

'Option 1', when it all hits the fan those in charge will generally instruct all employees of an official party line to follow, so yes they could all be lying to a degree. More realistically they would have been told to say nothing, in fact it makes me wonder why some of the employees allegedly stating these things still have a job, it's very damaging for potential court cases so maybe that indicates a lack of credibility on how genuine it is.

1 hour ago, afnav130 said:

I do find it quite interesting that the leaked chat between RB employee and a Heatblur employee is attacked as hearsay when in fact it was a legit conversation that far too many ignored or that will never change their stance on that. Quite frankly thats the only actual "evidence" that is out there and to ignore it is folly.

Again what irrefutable evidence has been presented in regards to the leaked conversation that makes it impossible to claim it was anything other than a legit, genuine conversation that took place between an RB employee and a HB employee? I've been involved in investigations and all manner of things were fabricated, including conversations in an effort to direct people away from the truth.

Until all evidence is presented from both sides, which is unlikely to ever take place, it would in your words 'be folly' to accept everything as irrefutable evidence until all possible facts are known.

Personally for me, I just get on playing DCS in my free time, which I don't have much of. I haven't taken the side of Razbam or Eagle Dynamics and wouldn't waste my time digging around looking for the truth on something that doesn't affect me.

Edited August 18, 2024 by TKhaos

[Oban]

5 hours ago, -orlok- said:

we also need to bear in mind that some posters may not exactly be acting in good faith.

it *does* seem, to me, to be a very messy and unfortunate situation but any "unofficial news" I'm going to take with a pinch of salt even if from a "trusted" source because I simply don't have a full 360 knowledge of what *all* the facts are.

that's not to say any/all leaks are false or untrue but they're only a segment of a far greater picture.

mix all this with a few folks who might be pre disposed towards or against one or both parties and things can really get out of hand.

its a horrid, unfortunate mess, trust has been lost for some and for others a seemingly last straw. 

me? I'm keeping my tentacles crossed for an amicable solution.

DCS is a weird dysfunctional soup of a sim, but it's a dysfunctional soup of a sim I get a lot of pleasure out of.

I want to see it become the sim it could/can be.

Oh even Stevie Wonder can see who's carrying a jerry can of gasoline, and who's carrying a can of water in this thread..

[HWasp]

6 hours ago, Nightdare said:

 

Do you have confirmation from Heatblur (or even Razbam) that this conversation took place?!?

 

Let's turn this around: Where is the official denial of this conversation by HB?

If someone would forge something like that with my name, in a situation like this, I would be pretty quick to deny it officially. 

[Nightdare]

6 hours ago, HWasp said:

Let's turn this around: Where is the official denial of this conversation by HB?

If someone would forge something like that with my name, in a situation like this, I would be pretty quick to deny it officially. 

No need to turn anything around, any information not officially from the involved parties can be dismissed out of hand

[Slippa]

I’d just like to ask that we don’t do any more turning around. This thread’s got enough spinning going on already, we can only put up with so many G forces.

[TKhaos]

5 minutes ago, Slippa said:

I’d just like to ask that we don’t do any more turning around. This thread’s got enough spinning going on already, we can only put up with so many G forces.

Personally every time a new comment pops up this jumps into my head

 

[HWasp]

2 hours ago, Nightdare said:

No need to turn anything around, any information not officially from the involved parties can be dismissed out of hand

Of course it can be dismissed, you are free to do so, no problem.

I don't think, that everybody else thinks like that though. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, HWasp said:

Of course it can be dismissed, you are free to do so, no problem.

I don't think, that everybody else thinks like that though. 

Ask yourself, if a party has chosen not to make something that was said by an individual official — why not? Likely it’s because whatever was said is disputed, is a one-sided interpretation of events without all the facts, is exaggerated, might subject them to defamation claims and/or for whatever other reason is not something the party wants to stand behind.   Surely if the party wholeheartedly supported those individual’s statements they would have the courage of their convictions and say they represent the official statements of the party (or that the person making them is an official spokesperson for the party).

But if they do not stand behind the statements, why should anyone else pay attention to them?

[Nightdare]

1 hour ago, HWasp said:

Of course it can be dismissed, you are free to do so, no problem.

I don't think, that everybody else thinks like that though. 

Companies do, responding to rumors isn't such a good strategy as it may seem in your head, you just made yourself another party in a dispute with 2 others, based on libel from an unknown source

You also think HeatBlur issuing a denial would shut the detractors up? They are already preaching gospel from hearsay and biased sources, to them, this would be even more proof HB would just be in cahoots with ED to save their own skin