waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[Guest]

2 hours ago, draconus said:

Why would they EOL a module while they still work and sell? Keep in mind modules are sold 24/7/365, not only one time by a bunch of old veterans from Flanker and LOMAC days at module release. Selling another copy is almost zero cost but without the detailed information on sales you don't know if they cover the maintenance costs, and there's not that much to keep them working when they're mature products.

How do you imagine ex. Spitfire or Mi-8 just stop working and thown out of DCS? This doesn't make sense. Not all of them need or have to be forcefully upgraded.

Modules are not like some old separate software that can be abandoned. They are integral part of DCS as a whole.

Your points are well taken, though I don't necessarily agree. But I won't do a long point by point response to respect Bignewy's request to keep on topic.  What I will just say is that we do in fact know the ongoing sales numbers for the modules like BS2, BS1 and WH1 -- zero.  They aren't offered for sale anymore, and the website lists them as "Deprecated version." 

[nessuno0505]

23 ore fa, Neil Gardner ha scritto:

If the answer is that there is intention by EA to service any that are no longer serviced or updated by their original developers, then at a stroke all the worry about the Eagle should go away.

I would not say so about the eagle: m2000c and mig-19 are fully developed and may require just fixes, something ED could potentially do; the av-8b would have room for substantial upgrades (starting from THE MANUAL) even according to Razbam, which is impossible without them, but we can accept that it remains as it is being declared feature complete; on the contrary the f-15e is far from being finished or feature complete and it is unacceptable such an important model remains unfinished, nor it is realistically conceivable that ED can complete it, so a removal from sales and a refund for all is the only possible answer if this will be the outcome; maybe in the future another 3rd party dev or ED itself could develop a worthy f-15e.

20 ore fa, wombat778 ha scritto:

My best guess is that the plan is to effectively EOL old modules by creating new versions (like they did with BS2, BS3 and WH2) then slowly deprecating the old versions.  That seems like a semi-viable way to get the revenue to keep updating old modules, and functions as a type of quasi-subscription model.

I would not call it a "quasi subscription model", but this makes sense: as time passes some older modules lower their sell rate as they start to get and feel too old compared to newer modules; that is the moment in which an upgrade sold at a small fee can boost up the sales and keep the module up to date. As far as I'm concerned I am completely in favour of this policy and I will buy all future updates of this type (I've also bought FC2024 even though I haven't flown for years with FC).

Edited August 1, 2024 by nessuno0505

[Neil Gardner]

Yes, I think you’re right about the Eagle, there is a fair way to go, but my understanding of comments made so far about commitment to models by 3rd parties include all of the forms of changes and upgrades that you have mentioned. They have said they are committed to the Eagle no matter what, I think that this was what was said, it is  somewhere in this thread Inthink. Well, what else can that mean? 

[Horns]

4 hours ago, Neil Gardner said:

Yes, I think you’re right about the Eagle, there is a fair way to go, but my understanding of comments made so far about commitment to models by 3rd parties include all of the forms of changes and upgrades that you have mentioned. They have said they are committed to the Eagle no matter what, I think that this was what was said, it is  somewhere in this thread Inthink. Well, what else can that mean? 

A quick search of the current thread for posts containing “committed” and “eagle”, and a separate search for “committed” and either “F-15” or “F-15E” didn’t turn up anything that resembled that. There was a post from one of the mods saying they were “committed to solving the problems”, speaking of the dispute with Razbam generally. Maybe the comment you describe was said before one of the culls or in the older thread, or the same meaning was conveyed in different words, but everything I remember reading from the mods was very careful to be non-committal about the future development of the F-15E that, personally, I’d need to see the post to think otherwise. Same would also go for any commitment to do anything beyond keeping any other Razbam model functioning as it currently is.

[draconus]

11 hours ago, Neil Gardner said:

Yes, I think you’re right about the Eagle, there is a fair way to go, but my understanding of comments made so far about commitment to models by 3rd parties include all of the forms of changes and upgrades that you have mentioned. They have said they are committed to the Eagle no matter what, I think that this was what was said, it is  somewhere in this thread Inthink. Well, what else can that mean? 

They only plan to keep the modules working as they are and not break them with updates. They can't fix current bugs or add any new features.

[Ignition]

On 7/31/2024 at 3:38 PM, WookiePetter said:

@NineLine I apologize if this has already been answered. But is there any idea of what the worst-case scenario would be; would the module just be abandoned or would there still be hope of receiving a complete module. Also, is there a point in time where the negotiations with Razbam can be considered to be "taking too long" or is it possible for negotiations to carry on for something over a year?

Worst case is losing the Razbam modules. Razbam said they will not update any module until ED pays them.

Negotiations can take several months/years.

I wouldn't count neither in Razbam or ED for the affected modules, I just consider them lost.

This is a big issue in the way ED handles the DCS franchise and I am very cautious now for what and when I buy. Razbam may be the only one wrong here but in the end it is an ED product.

On 7/31/2024 at 8:40 PM, C3PO said:

Any solution yet?

No, the last and only mention from ED was 4 months ago. And only because Razbam talked.

[Mizzy]

On 7/31/2024 at 7:38 PM, WookiePetter said:

@NineLine I apologize if this has already been answered. But is there any idea of what the worst-case scenario would be; would the module just be abandoned or would there still be hope of receiving a complete module. Also, is there a point in time where the negotiations with Razbam can be considered to be "taking too long" or is it possible for negotiations to carry on for something over a year?

No need for apologies, there are certain posters that still wish to confuse people of what is official and what is not. The other Razbam modules, namely the Mig19, Harrier and the Mirage are safe in DCS as functional modules that are considered, by Razbam, as feature complete and out of Early Access. Razbam were not going to do any updates, only fixes by ED if they break the module (or any other modules in DCS) by way of updates to DCS. Many users of the said Razbam modules may consider their completion as arbitrary, like the manual for the Harrier etc, but this is moot and nothing to do with ED and Razbam dispute.

As far as for the future of ED and DCS, in my opinion, this dispute won't affect anyone with a rational mind of why they play DCS because, I suspect, many players of this game find DCS far more interesting to play than this dispute, for example I love the Super Carrier more than anything at the minute . Therefore, when certain people wish to doom and gloom, stay positive, DCS will be around far longer than this dispute which was caused by one Party spitting their dummy out in public and giving their one sided story using their customer base as leverage for sympathy reasons. Don't let the minority posts dissuade you from the wealth of enjoyment DCS has given most of us over many years and the seed of DCS started in 1991 if memory serves 

Greetings

Mizzy

 

 

[Horns]

On 8/1/2024 at 2:38 AM, WookiePetter said:

@NineLine I apologize if this has already been answered. But is there any idea of what the worst-case scenario would be; would the module just be abandoned or would there still be hope of receiving a complete module. Also, is there a point in time where the negotiations with Razbam can be considered to be "taking too long" or is it possible for negotiations to carry on for something over a year?

What Mizzy said is accurate, and as one person who spoke about the missing features of the AV-8B I reiterate that that has nothing to do with the ED/Razbam dispute. However, please remember that we don't know how realistic or remote a 'worst-case' outcome for these modules is. Even if the dispute itself had the outcome of Razbam having no further involvement in DCS, that wouldn't necessarily mean module development couldn't continue under another dev.

Negotiations, as far as we know, will take an indefinite amount of time, and there is no reason I know of to think that couldn't stretch beyond a year. At some point one party may decide it's taken too long for their liking and they might seek to take the dispute to whatever arbitration is provided for, but that process would also take an indefinite amount of time on top of however long the negotiations have already taken. As frustrating as it is, the answers to these questions have to be "we don't know".

The only thing I can say that might be somewhat reassuring is to remind you that ED are offering to refund purchases of the F-15E from their store in return for store credit, so that means you can decide when negotiations have taken too long *for you*. If the dispute has an outcome you're happy with, you can always repurchase the module when that happens.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Horns said:

Even if the dispute itself had the outcome of Razbam having no further involvement in DCS, that wouldn't necessarily mean module development couldn't continue under another dev.

This.  Regardless of anything else, the F15E code and module is a valuable asset that loses a lot of its value if it’s not fully functioning in DCS.  I have to imagine that it makes a more sense for ED or another team to buy it and keep developing it rather than just letting it die 

[Gizmo03]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb wombat778:

This.  Regardless of anything else, the F15E code and module is a valuable asset that loses a lot of its value if it’s not fully functioning in DCS.  I have to imagine that it makes a more sense for ED or another team to buy it and keep developing it rather than just letting it die 

Yep.... that would be nice. If we would have some sort of guarantee that ED would buy the code and continue with the SE in the worst case it would be very reassuring. But for that..... RB has to sell their code first. And i'm not sure if they would do so if they sepperate in a very bad way....

[PaulToo]

7 hours ago, Gizmo03 said:

Yep.... that would be nice. If we would have some sort of guarantee that ED would buy the code and continue with the SE in the worst case it would be very reassuring. But for that..... RB has to sell their code first. And i'm not sure if they would do so if they sepperate in a very bad way....

The only way I see Razbam selling their IP would be with a substantial bonus over what is already owned. But as you said even that might be not enough. The 15 is a cash-cow and even in it's current state one of the best modules in game. Would be a shame for it to disappear over egos, greed, and hurt feelings.

 

20 hours ago, Mizzy said:

No need for apologies, there are certain posters that still wish to confuse people of what is official and what is not. The other Razbam modules, namely the Mig19, Harrier and the Mirage are safe in DCS as functional modules that are considered, by Razbam, as feature complete and out of Early Access. Razbam were not going to do any updates, only fixes by ED if they break the module (or any other modules in DCS) by way of updates to DCS. Many users of the said Razbam modules may consider their completion as arbitrary, like the manual for the Harrier etc, but this is moot and nothing to do with ED and Razbam dispute.

As far as for the future of ED and DCS, in my opinion, this dispute won't affect anyone with a rational mind of why they play DCS because, I suspect, many players of this game find DCS far more interesting to play than this dispute, for example I love the Super Carrier more than anything at the minute . Therefore, when certain people wish to doom and gloom, stay positive, DCS will be around far longer than this dispute which was caused by one Party spitting their dummy out in public and giving their one sided story using their customer base as leverage for sympathy reasons. Don't let the minority posts dissuade you from the wealth of enjoyment DCS has given most of us over many years and the seed of DCS started in 1991 if memory serves 

Greetings

Mizzy

 

 

 

You wrong on both counts.

Razbam planned to update/upgrade their older modules to the new standards. The MiG-19 with a new 3d model in and out. Harrier getting the fixes and updates with what was learned during the F-15s development. Not to forget the MiG-23, which would have set a new standard for "modern" redfor planes. ED never guaranteed that the feature complete modules will keep working. Just that they will try. They all still might go the way of the Hawk.

 

To the 2nd point, ED needs to change a lot for a successful future. They should take a page out from the developer from the big civ sim. Very different approach there. People didn't forgot about the Hawk issues and that was one bad module plus a long time ago. Even 3rd party devs seem to have taken notice. Selling first at their own store or adding individual install analytics to their module. Looks like trust issues and who can blame them, learn from the past.

I don't know if the first post in this threat is different for you to what I can see, but Razbam's statement just said that they stopped development due to issues with ED, nothing else. That was also after 8+months of no resolution for whatever reason. I can't fault them for that announcement. Nobody should be forced to work for free or see the fruits of their labor withhold. Plus if they didn't say anything and just stopped working everybody would call them all the names in the book.

ED's statement on the other hand reads very unprofessional and seemed more intended to shape a narrative. Very weird statement. If the IP infringement was that bad that it threatens the survival of DCS(NL's own words), why does Razbam still have access to all the tools and was even encouraged to keep updating their modules for free? Why didn't ED, as the publisher, suspended the release or stop the sale of the F-15E if the issues were that dangerous? They knew at least 6+months before Razbam's announcement about the issues. What happened to all the withhold funds for Razbam's modules? Lots of unanswered questions for which we, as the customer, don't have a right to the answer. But they are still there.

All that leaves a sour taste and really made a big dent into the enjoyment of DCS for me. Others in the communities I frequent have similar feelings. If a 3rd party has their own store I will buy there, for the ED store it has to be something I'm really interested in. Plus at the moment I don't see me buying any ED module, even if I was really looking forward to the Chinook. If that changes in the future depends not only on how this dispute is resolved, but also what ED will change for the future. As said before, they should look at the big civ sim developer for inspiration.

 

ED is not only the platform owner, but also the publisher. The buck stops with them.

[Mizzy]

24 minutes ago, PaulToo said:

The only way I see Razbam selling their IP would be with a substantial bonus over what is already owned. 

 

 

 

This is an IP dispute, that is what the dispute is about according to the first page of this thread.

24 minutes ago, PaulToo said:

You wrong on both counts.

Razbam planned to update/upgrade their older modules to the new standards. The MiG-19 with a new 3d model in and out. Harrier getting the fixes and updates with what was learned during the F-15s development. Not to forget the MiG-23, which would have set a new standard for "modern" redfor planes. ED never guaranteed that the feature complete modules will keep working. Just that they will try. 

 

 

Since nothing happened as you describe above, it's all imaginary and what could have happened. By the way, nothing is guaranteed in life and I never said it was. You are filling in the gaps with your own opinions and interpretations. Sorry I didn't read the rest as it looked a bit intense and turgid rhetoric. However, one thing is clear you are not right because like all of us here, we don't know the detail of the dispute. But you are welcome to your opinion as to how right you think you are.

Best wishes

Mizzy 

Edited August 3, 2024 by Mizzy
poor grammar and a bit intense.

[PaulToo]

1 hour ago, Mizzy said:

This is an IP dispute, that is what the dispute is about according to the first page of this thread.

It's true that it is an IP dispute, in that ED alleges that Razbam misused ED's IP. That's what's stated in Nick Grey's statement on page 1. The F-15E code&artwork is Razbam's IP, not ED's. Very different things.

Now, IP infringement can be anything from using a logo without prior approval to selling the IP and we don't know where on that scale the alleged infringement is. The hearsay is from a nothing burger to threatening the survival of DCS.

1 hour ago, Mizzy said:

Since nothing happened as you describe above, it's all imaginary and what could have happened. By the way, nothing is guaranteed in life and I never said it was. You are filling in the gaps with your own opinions and interpretations. Sorry I didn't read the rest as it looked a bit intense and turgid rhetoric. However, one thing is clear you are not right because like all of us here, we don't know the detail of the dispute. But you are welcome to your opinion as to how right you think you are.

22 hours ago, Mizzy said:

Razbam were not going to do any updates, only fixes by ED if they break the module (or any other modules in DCS) by way of updates to DCS.

Do you have inside into Razbam's business plans to state something like that?

Also ED can't really fix bigger issues if they don't have the source code. The F-15's radar fix any script kiddy could have done, so that doesn't really count. Not to forget IP infringement issues.

 

If the developer(Razbam) wrote, even before the fiasco, that these things are planned it seems reasonable to assume that they would have happen at some point.

There are more places for information exchange than a forum run by one party of the dispute.

 

Have a great day

[primus_TR]

2 hours ago, PaulToo said:

Razbam planned to update/upgrade their older modules to the new standards. The MiG-19 with a new 3d model in and out. Harrier getting the fixes and updates with what was learned during the F-15s development. Not to forget the MiG-23, which would have set a new standard for "modern" redfor planes.

Hot air.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

7 hours ago, PaulToo said:

Razbam planned to update/upgrade their older modules to the new standards. The MiG-19 with a new 3d model in and out. Harrier getting the fixes and updates with what was learned during the F-15s development. Not to forget the MiG-23, which would have set a new standard for "modern" redfor planes. ED never guaranteed that the feature complete modules will keep working. Just that they will try. They all still might go the way of the Hawk.

 

 

RB was promising updates to the MiG-19 since launch, including new models, and the MiG-19S. Upon launch, the MiG-19P was an unmitigated disaster that only gets forgotten because ED fumbled the bag with the Viper that Autumn. They claimed it was being worked on by a new team, it was not, they claimed the MiG-19S was coming, then claimed they never promised that, so frankly? I can't take what they promise with much else other than a grain of salt.

It's easy now to claim those updates are never coming, but they never really were. They've promised everything under the sun, but there's no way they'll deliver. It smacks of VEAO's antics.

Edited August 4, 2024 by MiG21bisFishbedL

[C3PO]

Out of interest, what features / fixes are missing from the Strike Eagle?

[draconus]

18 minutes ago, C3PO said:

Out of interest, what features / fixes are missing from the Strike Eagle?

 

[Mainstay]

6 hours ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

RB was promising updates to the MiG-19 since launch, including new models, and the MiG-19S. Upon launch, the MiG-19P was an unmitigated disaster that only gets forgotten because ED fumbled the bag with the Viper that Autumn. They claimed it was being worked on by a new team, it was not, they claimed the MiG-19S was coming, then claimed they never promised that, so frankly? I can't take what they promise with much else other than a grain of salt.

It's easy now to claim those updates are never coming, but they never really were. They've promised everything under the sun, but there's no way they'll deliver. It smacks of VEAO's antics.

 

This! Its a shame if they cant get stuff back on track together with ED. But i was also worried some of their projects never got the attention it deserved like the MiG-19 and the upcoming MiG-23. I mean if you only wanna do stuff like the Harrier / Mirage /F15E to reach the big public and generate most money okay everyone understands. But doing other REDFOR things as a sideproject is just a big nono imo. You either do it right or just dont bother at all and leave it for someone that does wanna do with the A-team and not the B-team or the Intern-team. 

[Mizzy]

1 hour ago, toilet2000 said:

The contractor for Razbam’s Harrier manual is Baltic Dragon. Take it up with him if you’re unhappy with the unfinished manual.

 

 

Purely reiterating other peoples gripe, I don't read manuals. So is Razbam not taking responsibility for their modules if you are directing people to individuals rather than the Company ! That is very strange.

Edited August 4, 2024 by Mizzy

[Mizzy]

1 hour ago, Pipe said:

Yet she has been getting away with these personal attacks continuously, in this and the other closed thread 

Correction, I have warnings issued, so I am not getting away with anything. As for the comment about opinions and disagreements, that works both ways. The post you are referring to is clearly telling everyone how great Razbam would have been if it wasn't for mean ED to withhold payment using fantasy events as leverage. It's only a few people and you are one of them, that don't like my posts defending ED over Razbam. So I am not losing any sleep over it. 

[Pipe]

1 hour ago, Mizzy said:

Correction, I have warnings issued, so I am not getting away with anything. As for the comment about opinions and disagreements, that works both ways. The post you are referring to is clearly telling everyone how great Razbam would have been if it wasn't for mean ED to withhold payment using fantasy events as leverage. It's only a few people and you are one of them, that don't like my posts defending ED over Razbam. So I am not losing any sleep over it. 

Well we will never know officially which was the bad guy. I just know who my money is on

Edited August 4, 2024 by Pipe

[PaulToo]

16 hours ago, Mizzy said:

Sounds like you are on Razbams payroll to troll this thread. Razbam couldn't even finish the manual for the Harrier and took their modules out of Early Access and many, it appears, thought their modules were not feature complete..There are also places for Razbam to spew their side of the story which they actively promote like the tag 'payRazbam' nonsense etc. Move on because I personally consider you as a common variety troll.

Resorting to name calling as expected. Maybe you should adhere to your own advise and lay of the conspiracy theories.

 

Have a wonderful day

[Mizzy]

1 hour ago, PaulToo said:

lay of the conspiracy theories.

 

Have a wonderful day

Thanks, can you lay off the fantasy theories,

Have a fantastic evening.

[Mizzy]

3 hours ago, Pipe said:

Well we will never know officially which was the bad guy. I just know who my money is on

 

Oxymoron, 'never know' and 'I just know' are contradictory. Best we just ignore each other eh ! Good.

Bye now

[nessuno0505]

However, if we want to say things as they are, the F-15e radar was not made by a member of the original Razbam team but by a developer hired for the purpose, one who put a time bomb in the radar code because he did not trust his new employers and who was one of the first to abandon the ship after the dispute became public. Whether he will return to work for Razbam once the matter is resolved, if it ever is, no one knows.