waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, JuiceIsLoose said:

So then you are saying that never in history, has a company with deeper pockets pushed another company into legal proceedings because they knew the smaller company couldn't afford it?

No, I am saying that under the factual situation in this case, there is no way that attempting to do that would make any sense. 

[Blackeye]

5 minutes ago, wombat778 said:

ED thought it could come out slightly ahead by getting involved in legal antics instead of spending cash

Of course not - you get ahead knowing the other party also doesn't want or can't afford to enter a legal battle and thus you may get away with things you wouldn't if you tried them with Disney.

 

 

[JuiceIsLoose]

3 minutes ago, wombat778 said:

No, I am saying that under the factual situation in this case, there is no way that attempting to do that would make any sense. 

Then how would it not then be plausible for ED to do this, not saying they are, if what they owed RB was greater than what they anticipated the legal costs to be? You say you are a lawyer, so I can understand you may have an idea on what supposed legal costs may be, but you have no way of knowing what ED owes RB, correct? So then you have no way of knowing which cost would be higher.

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, JuiceIsLoose said:

Then how would it not then be plausible for ED to do this, not saying they are, if what they owed RB was greater than what they anticipated the legal costs to be? You say you are a lawyer, so I can understand you may have an idea on what supposed legal costs may be, but you have no way of knowing what ED owes RB, correct? So then you have no way of knowing which cost would be higher.

Because there is no way to "anticipate" what the legal costs are.  Especially when dealing with intentional misconduct (which, this would be if the allegations are correct).  You are talking hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars in legal fees, especially considering the cross border nature of the dispute.  And then you might still lose.  When things go to court, there is no way anyone can be assured of winning, no matter how strong their case.  And if they lose and the misconduct was intentional there is always the possibility for punitive damages and attorneys fees.  Punitive damages are not calculated based on the actual damages, but instead calculated as an amount sufficient to "punish" the company doing the misconduct.  Plus if you made any false statements in press releases etc., you would be subject to defamation claims. Plus, if ED has any investors, it's likely that those investors would have breach of fiduciary duty claims against management for engaging in such reckless conduct.  Plus if the books inaccurately accounted for absolute liabilities, there are potential fraud/books and records violations.  Plus if ED sold any securities during the pendency of the dispute and irregular accounting, you could have civil or criminal securities fraud charges. Plus, if the lawyers involved know that the claims are fraudulent, they could be sanctioned for ethics violations and in some cases even sued for aiding and abetting fraud.  etc etc.  TLDR - when companies engage in malicious and intentional misconduct, the hammer can come down REAL hard.

In short, if a legitimate company chooses to engage in frivolous/unsupportable legal actions on something like this, it could EASILY bankrupt the company, no matter how much is owed to RB. In extreme cases people could end up in jail. So no, in my mind it is not plausible. 
 

EDIT: another thing I forgot — all this talk of RB being unable to fight a legal case seem to forget that contingency fees are a thing. If Razbam really has such an open and shut case involving intentional misconduct, pretty sure you’d be able to find a firm willing to take the case on a contingency basis…

Edited September 3, 2024 by wombat778

[Mizzy]

1 hour ago, Gizmo03 said:

Imo all this is not official and that means i don't care about these kind of information...

That is pretty much my point and why I only believe official communications. But some use it in their arguments that unofficial communications and screenshots out of context count as 'evidence' ! Three replies in a screenshot, where is the response to the third !! And yes, it could well be fake. However, doesn't Zambrano monitor what is posted on Reddit and intervene if it could prejudice his legal position! This is why I only take official communications as evidence.

Mizzy

[Mizzy]

1 hour ago, rob10 said:

IMO you pretty much have to pick which side you believe based on who you trust more because the "evidence" can be easily interpreted multiple ways.  I have no idea who's in the right on this, but I haven't seen much hard data to sway it one way or the other.

Indeed and a fair point which is why this dispute should not be in the public domain.

[some1]

39 minutes ago, wombat778 said:

Yes, it is totally absurd.  There is no way that any legitimate company, knowing it owes an absolute undisputed debt to a third party, would choose to engage in a legal battle and waste hundreds of thousands or possibly millions of dollars in legal fees, plus still have the risk of losing the case and then being subject to possible punitive damages and attorneys fees.

Would ED withhold the money they owed Razbam for no reason and risk legal battle? Absurd.

Would Razbam ignore the IP claims ED makes, knowing that it prevents them from getting paid for their biggest and probably most successful product to date? Equally absurd.

Yet here we are, 5 months since the thing went public and no end in sight.

For some reason I'm not eager to send more money to either company.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, some1 said:

Would Razbam ignore the IP claims ED makes, knowing that it prevents them from getting paid for their biggest and probably most successful product to date? Equally absurd.

Agreed completely.  The reason this dispute is still going on is because neither party is being absurd.  They almost certainly both have legitimate claims and grievances, and reasonable arguments that support their positions.  I have no idea who is right but IMO it’s where we are. 
 

anyway, y’all are free to believe whatever you want. But I think I’ve had enough debunking of nonsense for one day

[Schmidtfire]

There is no evidence that this issue has gone into a potentially costly legal dispute. But what I find interesting... 

"the current disagreement is the result of improper actions that have been taken by Razbam Simulations, in breach of its contractual obligations towards our company and of our legally protected IP rights, and for which we are seeking a reasonable and forward-looking commercial outcome rather than entertaining legal claims"

"RAZBAM Simulations is actively working with EAGLE DYNAMICS to reach an agreement to resolve our internal dispute and we don't want the discussion that our public declaration has generated to escalate any further"

Question: If someone is stealing money from you.. would you work together with the burglar to reach an agreement?

It does not make sense. There must be more layers to the story and it seems like refusing payment or rallying community are valid tactics with little regard to the customers who actually bought the products. No matter how it turns out, it will paint both parties in a bad light. This should not have happened. 

[NineLine]

There are lots of what-ifs and what could be, just a reminder that guessing only increases anxiety. Just let things progress as they will and stop trying to make sense of a complex and complicated situation. You guys have been fed enough from different places to make everyone stressed out, and I am sorry for that. But right now, there is nothing to do but wait and hope for the best outcome. (I recommend avoiding certain Reddit sites as well, they are only there to stir the pot, make everyone more stressed and anxious and have no goodwill toward anyone here or within the DCS community).

[Mizzy]

5 minutes ago, NineLine said:

(I recommend avoiding certain Reddit sites as well, they are only there to stir the pot, make everyone more stressed and anxious and have no goodwill toward anyone here or within the DCS community).

Bringing 'Reddit' nonsense here is a deliberate act of stirring it up and that's obvious.  

[JuiceIsLoose]

Just because something comes from Reddit doesn't mean it is 100% false and untrue.... The reason the stuff posted on Reddit gets referenced is because it would be censored and deleted off of here immediately.

[vfas25]

13 minutes ago, Mizzy said:

Bringing 'Reddit' nonsense here is a deliberate act of stirring it up and that's obvious.  

Not to mention the RAZBAM discord that looks like a Kindergarten fight.

[Esac_mirmidon]

I want more than wait and hope for a positive outcome.

As a customer i want COMMUNICATION to us both from ED and RB. 

I want to know:

How often and when was the last communication between both teams. ( i understand the content of those conversations are not going to be shared )

Who´s in charge about the negotiations from both sides. Who is talking with who.

There is still communication between teams or this stage has passed away and now is all about legal actions with lawyers on a Court

What ED expects from RB. What RB expects from ED

And i want to know what is going to happen to the RB modules if a solution, after many months of silence, is not possible.

We are paying customers, not spectators.

Thanks

 

Edited September 3, 2024 by Esac_mirmidon

[av8orDave]

15 minutes ago, Esac_mirmidon said:

I want more than wait and hope for a positive outcome.

As a customer i want COMMUNICATION to us both from ED and RB. 

I want to know:

How often and when was the last communication between both teams. ( i understand the content of those conversations are not going to be shared )

Who´s in charge about the negotiations from both sides. Who is talking with who.

There is still communication between teams or this stage has passed away and now is all about legal actions with layers on a Court

What ED expects from RB. What RB expects from ED

And i want to know what is going to happen to the RB modules if a solution, after many months of silence, is not possible.

We are paying customers, not spectators.

Thanks

 

 

I appreciate the perspective and opinion, but have you ever been around lawyers? You aren't going to get any of that, nor should you. Buying an $80 USD product does not entitle you to knowing how often, when, and about what two business communicate. You want to know who is in charge of negotiations? For what reason? You want to know any proposed settlement terms?

Yeah, I can tell you with 100% confidence, that ain't gonna happen. 

[Esac_mirmidon]

If they are still on the communication page between teams YES i want to know all of that

If they are on the lawyers-court page i want to know there is no more communication and everything is now on lawyers hands

 

Edited September 3, 2024 by Esac_mirmidon

[plott1964]

4 minutes ago, Esac_mirmidon said:

If they are still on the communication page between teams YES i want to know all of that

If they are on the layers-court page i want to know there is no more communication and everything is now on layers hands

 

typos out the ying-yang - LOL!

[Esac_mirmidon]

Corrected, thanks for the heads up

 

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, Esac_mirmidon said:

 

How often and when was the last communication between both teams. ( i understand the content of those conversations are not going to be shared )

Who´s in charge about the negotiations from both sides. Who is talking with who.

There is still communication between teams or this stage has passed away and now is all about legal actions with lawyers on a Court

What ED expects from RB. What RB expects from ED

And i want to know what is going to happen to the RB modules if a solution, after many months of silence, is not possible.

We are paying customers, not spectators.

Thanks

There is a zero percent chance of getting any of that.  Sorry, no business would ever provide that to customers.  Hell, that’s a level of detail that even employees of each company wouldn’t have — that’s the kind of thing that would be limited to senior most management and directors. 

[Esac_mirmidon]

But still i want some kind of info or communication from both teams.

Im tired of waiting and hoping for a better outcome in complete silence for months

Edited September 3, 2024 by Esac_mirmidon

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Esac_mirmidon said:

But still i want some kind of info or communication from both teams.

Im tired of waiting and hoping for a better outcome in complete silence for months

 

I want more info too and am also tired of waiting.  But I think we need to be realistic and recognize that we aren't getting to get any information or resolution anytime soon.  Sucks but it is what it is.

[MAXsenna]

But still i want some kind of info or communication from both teams.
Im tired of waiting and hoping for a better outcome in complete silence for months

Santa doesn't exist you know!
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Schmidtfire]

I have to agree with @Esac_mirmidon. There should be better communication when the support of 4 modules is in jeopardy.

That can amount to over 200USD(!) investment for some players.

Without going into the gritty details, some sort of statement on progress should be made. Heck, even my TV provider
disclose progress of negotiations when there is a conflict with a network I paid for.

We have waited long enough.

Edited September 3, 2024 by Schmidtfire

[vfas25]

24 minutes ago, Schmidtfire said:

I have to agree with @Esac_mirmidon. There should be better communication when the support of 4 modules is in jeopardy.

That can amount to over 200USD(!) investment for some players.

Without going into the gritty details, some sort of statement on progress should be made. Heck, even my TV provider
disclose progress of negotiations when there is a conflict with a network I paid for.

We have waited long enough.

 

That is true but I think the majority of the DCS community knows about and is not buying any RAZBAM modules at this point. 

[Flia]

7 minutes ago, vfas25 said:

That is true but I think the majority of the DCS community knows about and is not buying any RAZBAM modules at this point. 

Yes exactly.I will definitely never buy any module from Razbam again. Not after the F-15E fiasco.