waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[Oban]

2 hours ago, DD_Friar said:

Just to show where there is "yin" there is "yang" - I love the Apache and have it as my main ride, with many many hours spent in it. yes there is a lot to learn, but you can very easily "put warheads on foreheads" from the pilot seat. I have gleaned a lot of information from Casmo and found his videos very useful.

I use a throttle as a collective by the way....

Yeah, I use my Orion 2 throttle as well, it just lacks that "feel" but it works

[nessuno0505]

The av-8b has been without a manual for a long time. If today it has a complete one I'm glad that it is finally there, however given the current situation with Razbam I would be just a fool if I decided right now to buy one of their modules.

[Gunnar81]

7 minutes ago, nessuno0505 said:

The av-8b has been without a manual for a long time. If today it has a complete one I'm glad that it is finally there, however given the current situation with Razbam I would be just a fool if I decided right now to buy one of their modules.

The Harrier has had the pocket guide and the first 15 chapter part of the manual for something like 3 years now...

Its actually superbly put together by BD I think. Once this is all over hopefully he'll resume and finish it.

Edited October 29, 2024 by Gunnar81

[Esac_mirmidon]

At least now you know It has not one but to manuals to read. Glad to help.

You were talking about  "it doesnt even have a manual". Its fair at least to admit it does.

[Pillowcat]

1 hour ago, Esac_mirmidon said:

So what is the Pocket Guide (126 pages), and the Harrier Manual (485 pages) inside Doc folder in your DCS Harrier installation?

Please enlight us.

Its a sketch

Spoiler

 

[Esac_mirmidon]

With 485 Pages is far for beeing that.

Is not complete. But a sketch is something different. Baltic Dragon deserves some respect

Edited October 29, 2024 by Esac_mirmidon

[nessuno0505]

So finally it does not have a full manual, but only a part of it. Half a manual is not enough for a so called out of early access module (a presumed study level module, not a flaming cliff one. If there's no manual, where am I supposed to study?). If you give me half the manual, I pay half the airplane. But since there's the Razbam strike, I pay nothing and you keep your half manual.

Edited October 30, 2024 by nessuno0505

[Mizzy]

4 hours ago, Koriel said:

In a Reddit thread I am not allowed to refer to there are quite a few tidbits that don't reflect well on ED. Not bashing, actual supported facts. 

Razbam must have done something as well. But withholding payment so a third party developer can't continue anymore is in my opinion a very vile action. And to continue selling products from a third party and keeping the money is theft in my book. 

That is what I thought you had based your opinion on and that is why I asked my questions. Have you thought your information for hating ED has been manipulated? It seems to me weak minded people are very susceptible to Razbam's propaganda. The propaganda being Razbam have not been paid but you forget the real issue is Razbam have used ED's IP without permission for their own financial gain and expect ED to put up with the situation using their published module 'fan' base as 'leverage' in legal negotiations!!

Can you see how you have been manipulated read 'Reddit' and the very hostile group towards ED in shaping your opinion, or are too far gone in having a rational mind in this matter and reading the first post in this thread that details the real reason why this dispute has arisen ? When I see posts blame ED for non payment, I instantly realise you are radicalised by 'Reddit' and the DCS Exposed crap. 

Think for yourself and read the first post in this thread and have independent thought about this dispute ! Are you that weak minded !

Mizzy

[Citizen]

1 hour ago, Mizzy said:

the real issue is Razbam have used ED's IP without permission for their own financial gain

Hold on a second, there's no indication money has changed hands where the Tucano is concerned.

[wadman]

On 10/24/2024 at 11:05 AM, NineLine said:

The F-15E is undecided, if things fall completely apart we will need to decide if the F-15E should remain in its current state never to be changed. You are asking things we cannot see right now as we do not know how all this will play out. Hence the reason for the refund on the F-15E.

Is it a refund or a store credit?  Huge difference between those 2 things - you should be transparent on what you mean.

A credit is worthless to me as I have no desire to buy any new modules from ED until they sort this stuff out and fix the many incomplete things like super carrier (F14 still not properly recognized for traps, etc.,) and get a real dynamic campaign mode to make single player more engaging (I have no desire to play the MP air quake thing).

Edited October 30, 2024 by wadman

[Oban]

29 minutes ago, wadman said:

Is it a refund or a store credit?  Huge difference between those 2 things - you should be transparent on what you mean.

A credit is worthless to me as I have no desire to buy any new modules from ED until they sort this stuff out and fix the many incomplete things like super carrier (F14 still not properly recognized for traps, etc.,) and get a real dynamic campaign mode to make single player engaging (I have not desire for to play the MP air quake).

People should be grateful they're getting store credit to begin with, ED were under zero obligation to do so, and every refund will have an impact on the royalties that should go to Razbam..

Imagine if Razbam Corporate management hadn't tried to do the sneaky? I highly doubt their F15E devs were remotely aware of what they were doing, and why would they? They're 3rd party contractors, imagine if there was transparency within that organisation too ?

[JuiceIsLoose]

6 minutes ago, Oban said:

People should be grateful they're getting store credit to begin with, ED were under zero obligation to do so, and every refund will have an impact on the royalties that should go to Razbam..

Imagine if Razbam Corporate management hadn't tried to do the sneaky? I highly doubt their F15E devs were remotely aware of what they were doing, and why would they? They're 3rd party contractors, imagine if there was transparency within that organisation too ?

What has Razbam done that was sneaky? Please elaborate. They informed the users that there weren’t going to be updates and they provided a reason for why, not being paid any sales for their module that is currently being sold. That’s transparency, letting the users know of a situation that affects them. ED wanted it hidden, that’s a lack of transparency. 

[Oban]

7 minutes ago, JuiceIsLoose said:

What has Razbam done that was sneaky? Please elaborate. They informed the users that there weren’t going to be updates and they provided a reason for why, not being paid any sales for their module that is currently being sold. That’s transparency, letting the users know of a situation that affects them. ED wanted it hidden, that’s a lack of transparency. 

I'm not going to entertain you, as you know full well what the entire situation is about.

[wadman]

34 minutes ago, Oban said:

People should be grateful they're getting store credit to begin with, ED were under zero obligation to do so, and every refund will have an impact on the royalties that should go to Razbam..

Imagine if Razbam Corporate management hadn't tried to do the sneaky? I highly doubt their F15E devs were remotely aware of what they were doing, and why would they? They're 3rd party contractors, imagine if there was transparency within that organisation too ?

Great - but they keep saying refund which seems to be a lie if it’s actually a store credit.  Words matter and it’s not that hard to use the correct one instead of being a bit misleading…

[Oban]

Just now, wadman said:

Great - but they keep saying refund which seems to be a lie if it’s actually a store credit.  Words matter and it’s not that hard to use the correct one instead of being a bit misleading…

Semantics really, as store credit is a recognised type of refund in some places.

[JuiceIsLoose]

26 minutes ago, Oban said:

I'm not going to entertain you, as you know full well what the entire situation is about.

Well I don’t know what you are referring to that is “shady”. Cause I don’t know of anything RB has done that would be classified as such. Hence why I’m asking. 

[Oban]

Just now, JuiceIsLoose said:

Well I don’t know what you are referring to that is “shady”. Cause I don’t know of anything RB has done that would be classified as such. Hence why I’m asking. 

#page1

[Citizen]

13 minutes ago, Oban said:

#page1

Well, let's take a look.

On 6/17/2024 at 3:55 PM, NineLine said:

the current disagreement is the result of improper actions that have been taken by Razbam Simulations, in breach of its contractual obligations towards our company and of our legally protected IP rights

Given the highly visible development of the Tucano, I don't think we're looking at anything sneaky or shady on RBs part.  It's most likely a professional misunderstanding and a case study in why relying on verbal agreements is fraught.

As far as why it hasn't been resolved yet, we may find the answer on page one:

Quote

Is ED broke?
No, Eagle Dynamics is very healthy aside from this dispute currently

Very healthy *aside from this dispute currently* leads me to suspect that if RB solved the IP dispute (by stopping work on the Tucano immediately) ED would not be financially able to cover what it owes RB.

[Oban]

25 minutes ago, Citizen said:

Very healthy *aside from this dispute currently* leads me to suspect that if RB solved the IP dispute (by stopping work on the Tucano immediately) ED would not be financially able to cover what it owes RB.

Context is everything, you should include the whole paragraph, and not be selective.

Both parties need to be taken around the back of the bike sheds and have their bollocks kicked right up their backs becasue neither gets a pass on this situation.

With regards to the Tucano, if you're using your prime customers IP without their permission, or knowledge to enter into a new venture, Government, or commercial, that's as sneaky and shady as it comes..

For context, I work in a company as a subcontractor/self employed, recently other sub contractors used the companys SOP's and client database in order to start their own company in direct competition, and conflict of interests, where they also approached the main principal client with a view to undercut them, and take the contract from them......they used company property (laptops) to create their own company, using the employing company's software, and structure, right down to the same file structure...

Guess what happened? All those involved, and who were associated with the new venture were terminated effective immediately, no if's or buts, 8 guys sacked for a dick move, 5 because they were associated with the LinkedIn profile.

Now explain to me how what they did wasn't sneaky or shady?

[Citizen]

38 minutes ago, Oban said:

Context is everything, you should include the whole paragraph, and not be selective.

Sure, I can do that.
 

Quote

Is ED broke?
No, Eagle Dynamics is very healthy aside from this dispute currently, all other 3rd Parties and the ED development team continue to work and push new and exciting content out to you. 

The comma would be after 'healthy' instead of 'currently' (or, preferably, be split into two sentences) if it meant what I think you're thinking.

We have a broad idea what EDs income from the consumer side looks like thanks to https://vginsights.com/insights/article/how-to-estimate-steam-video-game-sales
We have a pretty good idea of how much leaves ED for NGs other entities thanks to UK disclosures.
Wags says a team consists of 20-30 individuals and that new projects don't slow down existing projects since they're different teams, so we have a broad idea of what EDs payroll looks like.

The math just doesn't add up for ED to be able to soak paying RB regardless of if they make up or not.
 

45 minutes ago, Oban said:

With regards to the Tucano, if you're using your prime customers IP without their permission, or knowledge to enter into a new venture, Government, or commercial, that's as sneaky and shady as it comes..

Well, that's the thing.  Ron and the developers seem to think Nick has been aware of the project for years and wholeheartedly approved of it.  Given that there was no money changing hands, I'd wager they didn't think a contract would be required.  I have no doubt that you'd agree that's a lethal mistake to make in business. 
 

52 minutes ago, Oban said:

For context, I work in a company as a subcontractor/self employed, recently other sub contractors used the companys SOP's and client database in order to start their own company in direct competition, and conflict of interests, where they also approached the main principal client with a view to undercut them, and take the contract from them......they used company property (laptops) to create their own company, using the employing company's software, and structure, right down to the same file structure...

Guess what happened? All those involved, and who were associated with the new venture were terminated effective immediately, no if's or buts, 8 guys sacked for a dick move, 5 because they were associated with the LinkedIn profile.

Now explain to me how what they did wasn't sneaky or shady?

Given the fact that RB was pretty open about developing a Tucano for years, I don't think this situation is similar to your example.  Occam's razor says this was a series of unforced errors without malice on both sides until relatively recently.

Given the amount that leaves ED for TFC, something like this was going to happen eventually.  All it would take is one module being a bit later than expected (F-4E) or one upcoming product to be too early for preorder (F-16).  

[Horns]

7 hours ago, Esac_mirmidon said:

With 485 Pages is far for beeing that.

Is not complete. But a sketch is something different. Baltic Dragon deserves some respect

 

There is a reason we don't see advertisements that say a product "comes with a complete manual" - the word 'complete' would be redundant, because something called a manual must be complete. Until this module has, dare I say it, a complete manual, it's fair to say it doesn't have a manual in the generally understood sense.

I do agree with the sentiment that Baltic Dragon shouldn't absorb the blame for the situation. I believe he only got handed the task of writing the manual quite some time after the module entered EA, so the fault doesn't lie with him.

Edited October 30, 2024 by Horns

[some1]

Harrier manual was supposed to be finished after weapon and TGP system rework. Hence it lacks chapters about weapons employment, targeting pod, and a few others. BD didn't want to write the docs only to be undone by a later patch. Sadly, that never materialized.

Out of beta or not, Harrier was not finished and Razbam was pretty open about that, planning further work on the module. Unfortunately not long after that message was posted, the current disagreement began.

Edited October 30, 2024 by some1

[Beirut]

7 hours ago, Oban said:

People should be grateful they're getting store credit to begin with, ED were under zero obligation to do so, . . . 

 

Interesting viewpoint that people should be grateful when another person/party does the right thing, regardless of obligation.

 

Not saying that as a dig at you, I'm just making the observation. Maybe these days people should be grateful. And surprised. 

[nessuno0505]

I do not want to blame BD or any other external contractor hired to write the manual (by the way, why would RB need to hire someone to write the manual for something they are developing themself?); moreover, if the airplane is incomplete, how can the manual be complete? Nevertheless, neither the plane nor the manual should be incomplete if a product is declared complete and out of early access.

[Esac_mirmidon]

When people take a look to other official manuals , even from ED, someone would have a surprise, both in number of pages and deep of descriptions.

Hind, i mean hint....