Force Feedback Settings Discussion

[firefox121]

2 minutes ago, Phantom12 said:

I also use an MS FFB2 and have settled on the following for now: Blending on, gain 200% on both axes and no curves or saturation in the controls section. I have the max force limit off but i dont think it should make any difference for FFB. Grover said that blending shouldnt change anything either but it does seem to change the gains somehow. I left it on as it "feels" better and as grover mentioned it doesnt decouple the real and virtual stick for FFB like it does with the spring sticks. Idk if those are the "best" settings but ive played around with gains and options on and off and a few different curves and thats what I think I prefer at the moment.

I understand grover will do a write up on the flight controls and their implementation so unless I learn something new in there that changes my mind I think ill stick with these.

Thanks.. I would try with blending on, for my feelings I set gain to 300% on roll and 250% on pitch, because roll feels less harder. 

[Phantom12]

7 minutes ago, firefox121 said:

Thanks.. I would try with blending on, for my feelings I set gain to 300% on roll and 250% on pitch, because roll feels less harder. 

I use lower gains with blending on, as it seems the forces increase when its on as compared to off.

[markturner1960]

Yeah, I agree, Maksim, is speaking truth ( there is also the 2nd language and written word barrier to take into account) it would be easy to make it an option for non FFB users, peoples feel and reaction to how a module flies is very subjective and of course, we have been using curves and saturation to tune stuff to our liking for a long time, which is not "realistic" .

Valuable constructive feedback such as he is providing is very useful and to be applauded. I get it that Heatblur are very protective of their product and the many months and years of effort that has gone into it, but that does not mean it cannot be improved!!!! 

Especially as FFB becomes less niche, I think it is important to separate it out from sprung joysticks in development paths.

I hope this discussion can be continued without people getting pissed at each other........

[Rifter]

I started flying the F-4 with my VBK stick and today tested my Sidewinder 2 FFB. Can’t get it to work properly. It creates a permanent uncontrolled roll to the right. When starting on ground everything is fine - roll axis is symmetrical and corresponds to stick and aileron movements. As soon as I’m in the air the stick is pulled to the right. Pitch axis works fine.
Checked with other modules (including F-14) and everything is fine there, working as always.  Checked for unwanted overlaying axes on other devices - with no success. Reset, rescan - nothing helps.

Since no one reported that problem I assume it is on my side. Since all other modules work I have to assume that one of the F-4 axis settings interfere with my Sidewinder. It looks like the roll axis gets its centre position shifted to the right in the F-4.

Any hints or clues are welcome…

[some1]

9 minutes ago, Rifter said:

It creates a permanent uncontrolled roll to the right.

Sounds like you need to invert FFB axes in DCS settings. For reference, on the ground you should feel a normal centering in roll axis, but no forces on the pitch axis until you gain speed.

Edited May 25 by some1

[Rifter]

Didn’t use the sidewinder for a long time. It had gathered a thick layer of dust, just like my hippocampus. STUPID ME - totally forgot about the FFB settings button in DCS!

Now for my feedback:
FFB stick has nice synchronisation with the animated flight stick. Pendulum effect of the bob weight-bellow-springs-damper-system very well comprehensible (even with my dust induced malfunctioning brain), but somehow it lacks dampening? You can create a damped oscillation around the pitch axis for the whole aircraft when letting go the stick rapidly and the stick will replicate the oscillation of the whole aircraft. Dampening then of course comes from the aircraft itself. Is that how it should work? I would have assumed that in the real F-4 the dampers in the flight stick control system should prevent that.

On the cool side:
As described by Kirk66, at takeoff with beginning of rotation I can relax the back pressure on the stick as the nose starts to rise and the stick will move willingly forward on itself for a smooth takeoff. Nice one!

As a side note: Since I have a motion system and a buttkicker I don’t need the FFB stick as a surrogate for all kinds of feedback. I can live with lower forces compared with the real aircraft as long as the force spectrum is replicated reasonably well. My Sidewinder is modded for double force output, so it has some punch though. Perhaps as encouragement for the Heatblur Team and Super Grover: In conjunction with the motion system, the spring force joystick does not feel strange or detached - motions do feel connected to flight stick movement. Which tells me that the special approach for modelling the system also for non-FFB sticks is not totally out of whack.

 

Edited May 25 by Rifter
Forgot something...

[Domestos]

I've ramped up the FFB Gain massively and I'm liking it very much. Does anyone know if I can do the same in the Tomcat? Maybe by editing a file somewhere? I have a Sidewinder2 mated to a CH Fighterstick like in da pic.

 

Domestos

[markturner1960]

So I run a Rhino and I know the accepted wisdom is not to use any curves as it will mess with the coded FFB....is this the case with the F4 ? I would like to introduce a little less sensitivity in the centre for more precision when re fueling......but I dont want to mess anything up that I should not be......

[Phantom12]

Idk if it messes with anything but given that the default hands off stick position is relatively far forward a curve might hurt precision in refuelling rather than help it. Youd have to use a custom curve, or turn the saturation down (but that might hurt you on T/O or other regimes where you need the whole stab).

[Hiob]

2 hours ago, markturner1960 said:

So I run a Rhino and I know the accepted wisdom is not to use any curves as it will mess with the coded FFB....is this the case with the F4 ? I would like to introduce a little less sensitivity in the centre for more precision when re fueling......but I dont want to mess anything up that I should not be......

Perhaps it would be better to modify you .conf in the VP software. You could for example alter the calibration values (haven’t tried, but should work). Though that would correspond more with x and y saturation than an actual curve……

[hazzer]

On 5/23/2024 at 4:13 PM, some1 said:

What is considered weak in real world applications is still very strong by flightsim hardware standards. According to the linked document, a change in airspeed of 50 kts in landing configuration still results in a force change of several kgF on the stick.

Meanwhile in Heatblur's implementation the change in these conditions is something like 0.15 kgF on a VPForce Rhino... when measured at max deflection, and much less at neutral trim position as measured in the real test. It's basically a limp stick. Even the strongest FFBeast hardware will not produce realistic forces with FFB inputs like that.

Here's a comparison of how FFB works in practice. Blue line is DCS F-4 at stock settings. Red line is DCS F-4 at 250% gain, even when scaled it is still very weak at approach speeds. Yellow line is how other ED aircraft with aerodynamic forces on the stick are implemented. Not great either, as FFB spring saturates quickly, but at least the stick is centring nicely at low speeds and feels more like a real airplane. 

A green line is a possible compromise solution that would both provide decent centring force on takeoff and landing, while also retaining the effects generated by F-4 Phantom control system.

*The lines are drawn from a few data points so they may not be fully accurate, it's just for illustrative purpose.

 

Thankyou for this graph, it is good to visualise what I have been feeling. I would very much like to say the F4 FFB is generally very good (the F14 having the best FFB in the sim). Like others have said, the low speed really is an issue as the forces are just not there. I think the compromised solution is pretty accurate, as long as we have some force around 20% at 100 knots. FFB enables us to have a more realistic sim experience, but there does have to be some compromise ad not everything can scale the same. This all doesnt have to be made the only option, as there is of course no harm in having a few options. 

 

Many thanks.

[Super Grover]

I'm in contact with VPforce. Hopefully, soon, I'll get my hands on the glorious Rhino so I can tune all outputs from the F-4E for the best experience. And, of course, I'll do my best to find the best way to expose from the code anything the stick needs for proper operations.

Edited May 28 by Super Grover

[Bazz_Mulder]

14 hours ago, Super Grover said:

I'm in contact with VPforce. Hopefully, soon, I'll get my hands on the glorious Rhino so I can tune all outputs from the F-4E for the best experience. And, of course, I'll do my best to find the best way to expose from the code anything the stick needs for proper operations.

 

Fell free to contact me if you need any tests or set up the Rhino for the Rhino   

[Slippa]

 

[Talisman_VR]

On 5/24/2024 at 2:06 PM, firefox121 said:

After reading this post........and I have a question:

I owns a Microsoft Sidewinder ffb2, so I unchecked the two blend and the other param and tune up the gain to 250% both axis and I feel more or less good

My question :

For all of the less rich people like me that can't afford the expensives new ffb's joysticks .... What the hell are the good settings?

Can someone owning MSFFB2 point me on the right direction?

Thanks in advance.

Loving my standard version of the MSFF2 stick with the Phantom.  Here are my settings:

SPECIAL:

Stick deflection limit and stick force blending both off.

AFCS Breakout dead zone Roll 1%, Pitch 2%.

FFB gain 200% Roll, 150% Pitch.

FFB TUNE PITCH AND ROLL:

Force 100, Shake 100 and CHECK SWAP AXIS (invert x and y are not checked).

AXIS TUNE PITCH AND ROLL:

0

100

80

Slider not checked

Invert not checked

Curve not checked

Note: Using a value of 80 on the saturation y axis gives more precise control, helps keep the Phantom fast, especially in a dogfight, and reduces over pulling/stressing.  Works for me, but your mileage may vary.

Happy landings,

Talisman

 

 

 

Edited May 29 by Talisman_VR

[firefox121]

4 hours ago, Talisman_VR said:

Loving my standard version of the MSFF2 stick with the Phantom.  Here are my settings:

SPECIAL:

Stick deflection limit and stick force blending both off.

AFCS Breakout dead zone Roll 1%, Pitch 2%.

FFB gain 200% Roll, 150% Pitch.

FFB TUNE PITCH AND ROLL:

Force 100, Shake 100 and CHECK SWAP AXIS (invert x and y are not checked).

AXIS TUNE PITCH AND ROLL:

0

100

80

Slider not checked

Invert not checked

Curve not checked

Note: Using a value of 80 on the saturation y axis gives more precise control, helps keep the Phantom fast, especially in a dogfight, and reduces over pulling/stressing.  Works for me, but your mileage may vary.

Happy landings,

Talisman

 

 

 

 

Thanks, thanks thanks, will try the 80 saturation value, cause my sidewinfer 2 has a bit of gooble at center posittion  (don´t know if it is normal as I bought a second hand unit)

Another Question, when you says 

FFB TUNE PITCH AND ROLL:

Force 100, Shake 100 and CHECK SWAP AXIS (invert x and y are not checked). You mean that swap axis must be checked and the other two not or all must be unchecked?

Edited May 29 by firefox121

[MAXsenna]

Thanks, thanks thanks, will try the 80 saturation value, cause my sidewinfer 2 has a bit of gooble at center posittion  (don´t know if it is normal as I bought a second hand unit)
Another Question, when you says 
FFB TUNE PITCH AND ROLL:
Force 100, Shake 100 and CHECK SWAP AXIS (invert x and y are not checked). You mean that swap axis must be checked and the other two not or all must be unchecked?

The MS Sidewinder FFB2 has a HUUGE hardware defined deadzone in the middle you cannot change. (You can watch it on the Controls Indicator. That's why it's sloppy in the middle, every unit is like that. I've read somewhere that with old drivers/software one could reduce/remove it. That's not possible anymore.
Yes, check only swap axis, not x nor y.
Tip. Do not use curves ever. It messes up the FFB, as it does not know about them.
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Talisman_VR]

22 hours ago, firefox121 said:

Thanks, thanks thanks, will try the 80 saturation value, cause my sidewinfer 2 has a bit of gooble at center posittion  (don´t know if it is normal as I bought a second hand unit)

Another Question, when you says 

FFB TUNE PITCH AND ROLL:

Force 100, Shake 100 and CHECK SWAP AXIS (invert x and y are not checked). You mean that swap axis must be checked and the other two not or all must be unchecked?

 

Yes, do not check invert x and y, but do check swap axis.  Swap axis check is underlined because it is very important for the MSFF2 to work properly.

And, just like MAXsenna has said, don't use curves.

Happy landings,

Talisman

[Jeeve79]

On 5/23/2024 at 9:21 PM, Hiob said:

I think the only effect that is completely overridden by the game is "Spring". But when you make it sticky, you loose the proper feedback in the game. You can get around this by NOT making it sticky and instead use "Balance Spring" for that. Make use of aircraft individual .conf files!

 

 

Not using that ffb software, but,
it feels like I am getting an issue with this sticky "spring" effect on my Sidewinder 2, in only the F-14 Tomcat. |It's masking everything except high AoA shudders. 

Got it since replugging Sidewinder USB (maybe during F-14 loading screen).
It somehow set my F-14 into centerspring mode. There are some forces, they center around trim center, and shudders, so it kind of works, but not at all as intended, forces stopped coming and going, very weird.  I need to reset this somehow back to 'amazing'.

Does anybody have any idea how I get it back to how it was?

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

I hope someone can help me out here:

My Rhino arrived yesterday and after faffing around a bit in the software I settled on pretty much the default settings. The exception being compensation that's needed for my particular setup: the Rhino pivot point is too far forward so I added a Virpil Z-extension (which is remarkably heavy - far heavier than the CM2 grip). This way the position of my grip is pretty much perfect for me.

The F-14, Mirage F1 and F-15E all work beautifully but the F-4 is next to uncontrollable: I crashed several times trying to keep it under control even doing a simply take-off instant action mission.
What seems to happen is that there is a massive delay (a full second at least) between my physical inputs and the in-game stick movement, and therefore control surface movement.
I obviously have FFB enabled in the DCS misc. settings, stick limiter and blending disabled in the F-4 special options, and FFB forces at the default 100%/100%.

I'm not using TelemFFB, and these are my VPForce configurator settings:
nullnull
Can anyone point me towards a solution?
Much obliged!

[Hiob]

Does the control monitor in the VP software react as expected to your joystick inputs?

100% Spring force is a bit excessive - I would tune that down. 

Tipp, you can adjust the FFB gain in the Phantom special options above 100% (up to 500% I think).

All of that doesn't explain the delay though..... I don't have that.

[some1]

I would double check your assignments in game. What you describe is very unusual, esp. that it happens only in one aircraft.

Also the F-4 FFB is different from any other aircraft, as Heatblur added custom simulation of the artificial feel system, but tuned it in a way that doesn't work very well with the Rhino, at stock settings. Increasing F4 FFB gain to 200-300% makes it more in line with other aircraft.

[Hiob]

Maybe something is wrong with the export scripts. Do you have anything in the export scripts folder apart from VPforce stuff?

1 minute ago, some1 said:

I would double check your assignments in game. What you describe is very unusual, esp. that it happens only in one aircraft.

Yeah, good idea.

Triple check, that you don't have double bindings (and restart after setting axis bindings)

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

11 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Does the control monitor in the VP software react as expected to your joystick inputs?

You're correct: it didn't. No idea why it worked just fine yesterday though. This test today was after a fresh boot and the F-4 being the only aircraft I flew in that session.

 

10 minutes ago, some1 said:

I would double check your assignments in game.

Oddly enough I had to rebind my buttons just now.

 

10 minutes ago, some1 said:

Increasing F4 FFB gain to 200-300% makes it more in line with other aircraft.

Yes I read that earlier, but I wanted to try 100/100 first, and I also gave 150/150 a try.



Reply to all of the above:
I disconnected the Rhino from the USB slot (a USB 2 hub) - which worked fine yesterday I might add - and connected it to my usual USB-C hub (all of my other Virpil controls are also in there).
It is fixed for now, but I find it quite odd that I only had that problem in the F-4, while the other aircraft worked just fine... I'll keep following it up. Thanks for the replies!  

Edited July 31 by Raven (Elysian Angel)

[Hiob]

1 minute ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

It is fixed for now, but I find it quite odd that I only had that problem in the F-4, while the other aircraft worked just fine... I'll keep following it up.

Just a coincident perhaps. Maybe your USB-Hub tilted out when you jumped in the F4.