What did I think of Kiowa? It needs to improve in some areas!

[Digitalvole]

I was all set to buy the Kiowa this weekend, but having read this thread I hesitated. What is the general consensus on performance (particularly in VR)? I assumed it would be much less demanding than the Apache but now I’m not so sure as a few people seem to be saying it’s not good on the fps front. 

[WizzRD]

21 minutes ago, Digitalvole said:

What is the general consensus on performance (particularly in VR)?

Cannot speak for the general population, but I love it. Just zipping around Siria is a joy (running a 3080/ G2).

[jubuttib]

1 hour ago, Digitalvole said:

I was all set to buy the Kiowa this weekend, but having read this thread I hesitated. What is the general consensus on performance (particularly in VR)? I assumed it would be much less demanding than the Apache but now I’m not so sure as a few people seem to be saying it’s not good on the fps front. 

Seems to vary a lot for people. But to be fair I'm also just generally seeming to have a lot of performance issues on the latest build, at least on busy servers. Was on Grayflag yesterday and was getting 30-40 fps initially, 15-25 fps towards the end of the session... With 5800X3D and 4090, though admittedly running 4K (but with DLSS on Quality). =/

[Slippa]

I was on a MP server surrounded by choppers of all kind. There were 8 of us noodling around and I had tiny bits of stutter but not for long.

It was better than I thought it was gonna be and my rig’s not got all the bells and whistles on by any means. Don’t think it’s any better or worse than my other helis? (Loach, Apache, Huey, Gazelle).

I don’t have great performance with FPS with anything to be fair so not the best example.

 

 

Edited June 10, 2024 by Slippa
FPS

[Mohamengina]

2 hours ago, Digitalvole said:

I was all set to buy the Kiowa this weekend, but having read this thread I hesitated. What is the general consensus on performance (particularly in VR)? I assumed it would be much less demanding than the Apache but now I’m not so sure as a few people seem to be saying it’s not good on the fps front. 

it's pretty bad for me and I've got all my modules running at a constant 72fps apart from the Apache which dips in and out of 72fps depending on the map/mission/whether or not the targeting pod is on. Kiowa seems to always be running around 30-35fps on VR and the problem seems to be when inside the cockpit. Going into external views gets me back to 72fps.

Specs if anyone is interested:

9700k

RTX 4080

64GB ram

Quest 3

running most DCS graphics stuff on medium/low

hoping it gets optimised or ED releases their single render thread soon.

really enjoying the feel of the heli though - it's really well made and an awesome addition to the game so will 100 percent be worth a buy once performance improves

 

Edited June 10, 2024 by Mohamengina

[Romandv]

Hello!

I'm thinking of buying a KW. Can anyone compare with the F 4E? I wouldn't want it to be worse in terms of performance, I get 50 FPS in Kola at some airports instead of the stable 60 FPS on all other modules.

(7700X/7900XT/1440p)

Edited June 10, 2024 by Romandv

[Digitalvole]

Thanks guys, very helpful. With a heavy heart I will not purchase the Kiowa yet. Drat and blast, I really was looking forward to it. Hopefully it’ll improve over time because it looks like a hell of a lot of fun.

thanks again

[BronzeYardNo11]

Polychop did a fantastic job with the FM (I forgive them after the Gazelle disaster lmao) I have very little complaints in that area.

Improvements I would suggest:

Better Sounds: Guns/Rockets/Rotor/Blade slap.

I want to hear a good "umph" when firing a rocket

Blade slap sounds are weak and too constant, blades are always slapping unless you are straight & level.

See Video for both weapons and rotor sounds: (Some excellent ear-candy)

As for the FM:

It's a little touchy, especially in turns (I feel that airspeed/drag would put some sort of resistance in maneuvering, can any IRL pilots confirm? )

Some muscle memory from flying Deamfoil's Bell 407 in X-Plane kicked in when I first started up in a hover, I am very Impressed!

 

[Slippa]

I can’t say I’m anywhere near as impressed with the Kiowa as I am with the F-4.

That doesn’t mean to say it isn’t really good which I think it is. It’s nowhere near the Phantom but it’s packed with a lot and is a lot of fun to fly, the sounds are naff (for now) and the external lights but I hope in an update or two it’ll improve. I don’t like to say it but when I read that this was to be a fully fledged finished module I knew it probably wouldn’t be. There are always niggles and bits to touch up with most things which is fair enough. This is meant to be finished though. There’s a few boo-boos but I think it’ll be good in a bit.

Just grab it Mr Vole, you know you wanna 

[Digitalvole]

Just wondering, for those that are seeing a bit of a performance hit with the Kiowa, did you delete the fxo and metashader folders after the update? I’m clutching at straws perhaps, but damn I really want this thing now. 
 

 

2 minutes ago, Slippa said:

Just grab it Mr Vole, you know you wanna 

Haha, so true! 

[Bri01]

Buy it, you'll like it.

[jubuttib]

29 minutes ago, Digitalvole said:

Thanks guys, very helpful. With a heavy heart I will not purchase the Kiowa yet. Drat and blast, I really was looking forward to it. Hopefully it’ll improve over time because it looks like a hell of a lot of fun.

thanks again

Oh right forgot to put my FPS figures into context: Just before going on the servers I tested an instant action mission Caucasus - Cold Start. After getting the thing running, and with drones and F-16Cs flying around, I was getting fluctuations between 120-180 FPS.

So it ran just fine with (admittedly) overkill hardware in those conditions, but reeeeaaaaalllyyyyy struggles on Grayflag and some other complex missions (like the one I use for training on Caucasus that has just gotten more and more bloated over the years)...

[Slippa]

Just watched the video BronzeYard posted and have to say the real gun sounds a bit naff too. 

Maybe Polychops gun sounds ain’t so bad after all? 

[Dangerzone]

1 hour ago, Mohamengina said:

it's pretty bad for me and I've got all my modules running at a constant 72fps apart from the Apache which dips in and out of 72fps depending on the map/mission/whether or not the targeting pod is on. Kiowa seems to always be running around 30-35fps on VR and the problem seems to be when inside the cockpit. Going into external views gets me back to 72fps.

Specs if anyone is interested:

9700k

RTX 4080

64GB ram

Quest 3

running most DCS graphics stuff on medium/low

hoping it gets optimised or ED releases their single render thread soon.

really enjoying the feel of the heli though - it's really well made and an awesome addition to the game so will 100 percent be worth a buy once performance improves

 

 

Would it be worth creating a dedicated thread of it's own to discuss this? I'm on a 4090/13900K/64GB RAM and I can't say I've noticed any performance differences between it and other aircraft. I'm maintaining 90fps with the lot with a similar overhead reported. 

As such, I'm wondering if it might be related to a particular setting instead that's causing some to see FPS issues, and others not. 

[huchanronaa]

The texture modeling level of dcs oh-58d is still at the level of dcs world about eight years ago. This level of texture is unbelievable. This is a helicopter module that has been developed for 3-4 years.Please compare the texture modeling of DCS F-4E to understand
Frankly speaking, I think it should still be in the E.A VERSION stage, but the POLYCHOP sells it at the price of FULL VERSION!! Its price of 70 US dollars is even higher than the DCS F-4E and AH-64D, which are more difficult and time-consuming to develop.
I understand that POLYCHOP is a team of only 3-4 people and is eager to obtain funds, but such a selling price obviously overestimates its product.

Edited June 10, 2024 by huchanronaa

[LuseKofte]

I think people have issues like me. I run 3080 and a G2. I have a very slow uploading of textures. If I figure out how to repair DCs I probably improve on that part. Had it a long time with all modules. 
I never believed I even liked the Kiowa. I bought it because I am a rotorhead. 
but man do I love it

[Toge]

This has been beaten to death already, but just to add my humble opinion: I'm honestly not seeing any difference in the model or texture quality between the Kiowa or for example the Apache. I've tried looking at different screenshots and videos to see the difference, but no. And in game it's all the same and anyway looked at from quite a distance. I see a few people here commenting things like "unbelievable", "overpriced", etc, and really have no idea what these people are talking about. It's your opinion of course, it's as valid as mine and you're welcome to voice it, but to not scare away anyone who hasn't bought the module yet: People are different, someone's eyes apparently hurt when looking at this, whereas I'm very happy with what I'm seeing, and enjoy the module in other ways too (you know, flying it and fighting in it). If PC ever chooses to update the model and/or textures, I most likely won't notice the difference.

[Furious]

More importantly - where can I get That keyring ??????

 

[LuseKofte]

1 hour ago, Toge said:

I'm honestly not seeing any difference in the model or texture quality between the Kiowa or for example the Apache

There isn’t. It is a shimmer from the swithes that is in no way ruining the experience. I really hate the tendency some few loud ones in the community and their hostile approach in special after the Razbam vs ED dispute. Childish people buying a module and after two minutes calls it a robbery. 

Edited June 10, 2024 by LuseKofte

[ThorBrasil]

1 hour ago, Toge said:

This has been beaten to death already, but just to add my humble opinion: I'm honestly not seeing any difference in the model or texture quality between the Kiowa or for example the Apache. I've tried looking at different screenshots and videos to see the difference, but no. And in game it's all the same and anyway looked at from quite a distance. I see a few people here commenting things like "unbelievable", "overpriced", etc, and really have no idea what these people are talking about. It's your opinion of course, it's as valid as mine and you're welcome to voice it, but to not scare away anyone who hasn't bought the module yet: People are different, someone's eyes apparently hurt when looking at this, whereas I'm very happy with what I'm seeing, and enjoy the module in other ways too (you know, flying it and fighting in it). If PC ever chooses to update the model and/or textures, I most likely won't notice the difference.

 

 

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

6 hours ago, jubuttib said:

What is the general consensus on performance (particularly in VR)?

I don't know about the consensus, but my experience is detailed on page 1.

5 hours ago, Romandv said:

Can anyone compare with the F 4E?

See my post on page 1 of this thread.
 

 

2 hours ago, Toge said:

not seeing any difference in the model or texture quality between the Kiowa or for example the Apache

Personally I find the textures "too clean looking", without the 'wear and tear' contrast that's easily observable on other recent modules. Also the switches look weird. But it might also depend on the resolution you're running at. I have my G2 at 100%.

 

[freehand]

OP you had your 15mins of fame now move on. 

[Braunn]

14 hours ago, LuseKofte said:

Don’t buy it please. There is enough crybabies around that already did. 
Why join that club before even buying it?

I don't get why t f you guys are so triggered for. Honestly. Just scroll past and quit tagging people just because you are triggered by something. I will buy it when I feel like buying it. How about that. 

Edited June 10, 2024 by Braunn

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

5 hours ago, Digitalvole said:

Thanks guys, very helpful. With a heavy heart I will not purchase the Kiowa yet. Drat and blast, I really was looking forward to it. Hopefully it’ll improve over time because it looks like a hell of a lot of fun.

thanks again

You're not losing out on much by waiting, to be fair. Keep it in mind, watch for sales, etc.

It's a lot of fun.

5 hours ago, BronzeYardNo11 said:

Polychop did a fantastic job with the FM (I forgive them after the Gazelle disaster lmao) I have very little complaints in that area.

Improvements I would suggest:

Better Sounds: Guns/Rockets/Rotor/Blade slap.

I want to hear a good "umph" when firing a rocket

Blade slap sounds are weak and too constant, blades are always slapping unless you are straight & level.

See Video for both weapons and rotor sounds: (Some excellent ear-candy)

 

 

They're on it. So, that's real good news.

[jww123]

Maybe I missed it- The statement from Polychop that this was the finished version of the module and that baring changes in the DCS core module no further changes or updates would be needed. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

My point is that Polychop has been working on this for years, and years that included a major economic downturn due to Covid. I gather they are a small company that does not perhaps have the resources of larger companies such as ED, resources that allow them to weather economic downturns. Maybe they could not afford to release this at a discounted price. Maybe they needed to sell the module at full price to keep improving this module and to support the Gazelle module. I don't have the Gazelle module but from what I have read it was pretty rough when released and was difficult to fly due to issues with the flight model but that Polychop has released updates that greatly improved the module. So it seems to me that if Polychop can stay in business we can expect them to continue to improve the Kiowa module and who knows, perhaps even in the future, release an AH-6/MH-6 module with "theoretical" avionics and weapons systems (because the AH-6 and MH-6 are still in active service with the 160th SOAR, using classified equipment).

This brings up the business aspect of flight sims and even more niche, military flight sims. Yes, computer gaming is a huge business with sales exceeding that of mainstream entertainment categories. But flight sims and military flight simes in particular are a miniscule part of the computer gaming industry. There just isn't the revenue from flight sims to match that of other genres. And do you think that civilian aviation sims would be at the level they are currently if it were not for the deep pockets of Microsoft? The way I see it, anything we can do to support Eagle Dynamics,  Polychop and the other companies producing the modules, the better our experience in DCS will be. Frankly I am surprised that DCS World is freeware and that, given the time and effort required to produce these aviation modules and maps, that they only cost 70 -80 dollars. I could easily see DCS World being a subscription software, charging 60-120 dollars per year and modules charging for non patch major upgrades.

When you think about it, all Polchop has done is to do away with a pre-release 20-30% discount. You don't get early access (unless you are a beta tester). When it is released at full price you have access to a module that still requires updates and upgrades. The fantastic looking F-4E Phantom from Heatblur is now on sales for it's full retail price, it was released 19 days ago.  And have you seen the amount of bug fixes and module improvements ( over 110 ) that came with the DCS update 5 days ago? What are you getting for your 15-20 dollar discount? Not early access, not a pre-patched version, you are just getting a small discount on a module that is not yet finished. 

What are the complaints about the OH-58D? The graphics could be improved? I guess, certainly compared to the photorealistic F-4E, but it could be improved in the future. Somewhat wonky sound? Yes, but the post from Polychop today re the partnership with Echo 19 sounds like upgraded audio will be released in the future. Damage modeling? I don't know about that, it seemed pretty good when I had a complete drivetrain failure requiring an (attempted) auto rotation after over torquing the helicopter. That seemed pretty sophisticated, though I can't say if that was accurately modeled as would have happened in real life. Airbags in the face when I set it down too hard? I was impressed. Flight model too easy? I can't judge that since I have never flown a helicopter in real life let alone an OH-58D. I will defer to Casmo on that, he walked the walk so I believe him when he talks the talk. Besides, given that our controls are not as in real life and that we lack the situational awareness as in real life, well perhaps compromises are unavoidable. I'm a rookie at flight sim helicopter pilot ( first flew Jane's Longbow in 1995 or 96 but had a long hiatus from flight sims as my career commitments left little time for anything as demanding as full fidelity flight sims such a Falcon 4.0 and then Falcon BMS and eventually DCS World. Having that perspective, starting PC flight sims in the early 1990's when you had to run them in MS-DOS and configure the PC using command line code to enable the PC to run the sim I am totally blown away with the flight sims we now have access to. Perhaps that is why I am not as bothered by these areas that can ( and likely will ) be improved.

I don't regret buying this module even at full price. Can it be improved? Of course, but is it finished enough to fly and fight? From what I have seen the answer is yes. So I will support this hobby of ours, paying full retail if necessary, it's in all our best interests to keep these companies in business. I would rather have an OH-58D module that may need some improvements than having no module at all. So yes, I will pay an extra 15-20 dollars to support our hobby.

 

Edited June 10, 2024 by jww123