need track replay gun accuracy terrible

[fox2]

impossible to hit target with guns (not even close). why apache's gun has terrible accuracy? 

i'm talking about cpg tad shooting.

 

-is there something i'm doing wrong? 

-this is bug?

-apache is useless crap?

which one?

[razo+r]

Probably the first option you listed, but it's hard to tell with so little information.

Can you perhaps attach a short track?

[BIGNEWY]

16 minutes ago, fox2 said:

impossible to hit target with guns (not even close). why apache's gun has terrible accuracy? 

i'm talking about cpg tad shooting.

 

-is there something i'm doing wrong? 

-this is bug?

-apache is useless crap?

which one?

probably pilot error but best we see a short track replay example before we jump to conclusions. 

Please ensure you are setting the range correctly, or at least setting to A for auto ranging. 

Also ensure you have boresighted correctly. 

 

[[DE] T-Bone]

3 hours ago, fox2 said:

impossible to hit target with guns (not even close). why apache's gun has terrible accuracy? 

i'm talking about cpg tad shooting.

 

-is there something i'm doing wrong? 

-this is bug?

-apache is useless crap?

which one?

What distance?

Stationary or moving targets?

Did you shoot straight away or wait a while so that the TSE could calculate correctly?

[fox2]

3 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

probably pilot error but best we see a short track replay example before we jump to conclusions. 

Please ensure you are setting the range correctly, or at least setting to A for auto ranging. 

Also ensure you have boresighted correctly. 

 

i do both. setting boresight and range "auto".

[BIGNEWY]

21 minutes ago, fox2 said:

i do both. setting boresight and range "auto".

its best to add a track replay then, all seems ok for me when I test. 

Walking the rounds onto the target / adjusting for fire is something the real folks do also. 

thank you 

[LuseKofte]

25 minutes ago, fox2 said:

i do both. setting boresight and range "auto".

What do you mean inaccurate? Pilot said you lead into target you do not hit at first bullet

oh sorry I answered at same time

Edited June 18, 2024 by LuseKofte

[Raven434th]

Does wind have an affect on accuracy...or does the system take that into account??

 

[Floyd1212]

3 hours ago, fox2 said:

i do both. setting boresight and range "auto".

For clarification, boresighting and setting range to "auto" is applicable when using the HMD as your sight, i.e. shooting the gun at what you see out the window.  Using the TADS with laser ranging will use its own calculations.

[Grennymaster]

things to considre:

first of all, the gun is an Aereal weapon, its not meant to be dead accurate. so a spread of around 1-3 Meters, depending on distance, wind an your and the targets movement.

max distance to a stationary target if you hover with, nearly no wind: about 2,5 to 3 km

on a moving target about 2 km, but you have to lead the gun very good.

if you move gun is best to hit within about 1-1,5 km.

What i always do as CPG with TADS is: get target in IAT keep lasing the target an shoot in 10-20 shot burst, then aply an re engage.

overall you can be very very dangerus for the enemy just with the gun. BUT you have to train to get better with it

mabye you can put up a track, so we could see what you do and hopefully have some good tipps for you

[DOG]

I have notice that sometimes bullets land on the sides I wonder if it has to do with wind or maybe apache is supposed to correct for wind???  and NO it can not be dispersion because all rounds are landing on the same side in a "compact" group.

[Grennymaster]

the IAT or the TADS in generall does not compensate wind. with the IAT on a target the computer tryes to compensate the movement of the aircraft, wich works realativly good if you are not at 120 knts   we are using the gun mostly when under 40 knts if we want to be realativ prezice

[JetCat]

On 6/18/2024 at 11:29 AM, fox2 said:

impossible to hit target with guns (not even close). why apache's gun has terrible accuracy? 

Range auto setting does not work as good as lasing a target. And the distance should be lower than 2km for precision.

[TheGhostOfDefi]

And dont forget that the Target State estimator can work against you! Hold your target persistent in your crosshairs.

[DOG]

On 6/19/2024 at 4:16 AM, Grennymaster said:

the IAT or the TADS in generall does not compensate wind. with the IAT on a target the computer tryes to compensate the movement of the aircraft, wich works realativly good if you are not at 120 knts   we are using the gun mostly when under 40 knts if we want to be realativ prezice

I was in a perfect hover with the ATT mode on and I was shooting a perfectly stable target and the bullets where constantly hitting the side of the target  and no it was not dispersion all the bullets were hitting the same relative area but still this area was to the side of the target.
keep in mind I was very far like 3.3 or 3.4 km

[Grennymaster]

3.3 is a very high distance. dont forget that the gun barrel ist nur very long. have you testet the same szenario with less distance? like 1.5 or so. if there is a bit of wind the bullets can get off target very far.

[Wawar]

I was in a perfect hover with the ATT mode on and I was shooting a perfectly stable target and the bullets where constantly hitting the side of the target  and no it was not dispersion all the bullets were hitting the same relative area but still this area was to the side of the target.
keep in mind I was very far like 3.3 or 3.4 km

Same issue.

@Grennymaster : Like Dog explained, I don’t see a « dispersion » or a CEP issue, it’s just that the group of impacts is OFF target, to the right or the left.

If I understand correctly, the TSE should compensate for the A/C movement, within margins.

Another test : No wind, A/C height 1000ft AGL, target range 1000-1500m, 40KIAS; lasing a few seconds before the shoot to let the TSE make the calculation and lasing while shooting :

- target on the LEFT of the A/C : group of impact on the RIGHT of the target
- target in the RIGHT of the A/C : group of impact on the LEFT of the target

The impacts are well grouped, good CEP. But the point of impact is OFF the target, left or right relative to the relative bearing of the target.

[Rogue Trooper]

16 hours ago, Wawar said:

Same issue.

@Grennymaster : Like Dog explained, I don’t see a « dispersion » or a CEP issue, it’s just that the group of impacts is OFF target, to the right or the left.

If I understand correctly, the TSE should compensate for the A/C movement, within margins.

Another test : No wind, A/C height 1000ft AGL, target range 1000-1500m, 40KIAS; lasing a few seconds before the shoot to let the TSE make the calculation and lasing while shooting :

- target on the LEFT of the A/C : group of impact on the RIGHT of the target
- target in the RIGHT of the A/C : group of impact on the LEFT of the target

The impacts are well grouped, good CEP. But the point of impact is OFF the target, left or right relative to the relative bearing of the target.

HMS targeting or TADS?

TADS I guess.

Edited July 18, 2024 by Rogue Trooper

[Wawar]

HMS targeting or TADS?
TADS I guess.

TADS yes. After verification with Bradmick on Discord it seems to be normal. The system is not « perfect », sometime the gunner has to make correction, even if the targeting is good.

Another interesting point : apparently, George AI don’t use the LMC/TSE, so when George is operating the gun, there is not account of A/C movement.

Which could explain why it is grouped, but off.

Example of George AI grouping : https://streamable.com/okq8ql


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Grennymaster]

ok, so we learned something new thats nice

i use the gun mainly manual, so i never noticed that as heavy .)

George needs to learn so much more

[Raptor9]

7 hours ago, Wawar said:

Another interesting point : apparently, George AI don’t use the LMC/TSE, so when George is operating the gun, there is not account of A/C movement.

This is not correct. When firing the gun, George uses continuous laser designation, which activates TSE.

He does not use LMC, but that does not preclude the use of TSE, which is solely reliant on laser designation.

[Wawar]

6 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

This is not correct. When firing the gun, George uses continuous laser designation, which activates TSE.

He does not use LMC, but that does not preclude the use of TSE, which is solely reliant on laser designation.

Ok, thought that LMC was a criteria for TSE activation, thanks. So, constant lasing + target correctly stabilized in the scope = TSE is working and good accuracy?

George is NOT using LMC, he is using the Autotracker + lasing while shooting. The target LOS is perfectly stable AND and the A/C perfectly stable. This should make the LMC work and put the rounds correctly to the target, without wind, since the TSE should compensate for the A/C movement. 

Does it seems normal to you, with the conditions described in my previous post, with a perfectly stable LOS and continuous lase (So, TSE in action), that : 
- target on the LEFT of the A/C : group of impact on the RIGHT of the target
- target in the RIGHT of the A/C : group of impact on the LEFT of the target

According to Bradmick, it's normal to "compensate" sometime, but I don't understand if we are supposed to compensate for the lack of performance of the TSE itself, or If we should adjust for the external factors like wind, etc. 

Currently with a perfectly stable A/C, in a sterile environment like DCS can provide (no wind, etc.), the rounds are well grouped, but OFF the target. It is supposed to be?

Edited July 19, 2024 by Wawar

[Floyd1212]

I remember threads a long time ago when tests were done to demonstrate targets off to the left of the aircraft would miss to the right, and targets off to the right of the aircraft would miss to the left.  I'm not sure if this ever got resolved and this might be a regression, or if it has always been that way.

[Raptor9]

1 hour ago, Wawar said:

Ok, thought that LMC was a criteria for TSE activation, thanks. So, constant lasing + target correctly stabilized in the scope = TSE is working and good accuracy?

LMC is almost always used when intending to employ the TSE, because LMC (or IAT) helps ensure a stable TADS line-of-sight on the intended target. If LMC is not used, it is likely the TADS line-of-sight will be jerking around the target to some extent (unless the CPG has really fine motor skills in his right thumb, like George), which creates variations in the ballistic solution. LMC does not enable TSE, but LMC (when manual tracking) or IAT (when automatic tracking) ensures the TADS position is stable and consistent for better TSE calculations.

1 hour ago, Wawar said:

Does it seems normal to you, with the conditions described in my previous post, with a perfectly stable LOS and continuous lase (So, TSE in action), that : 
- target on the LEFT of the A/C : group of impact on the RIGHT of the target
- target in the RIGHT of the A/C : group of impact on the LEFT of the target

According to Bradmick, it's normal to "compensate" sometime, but I don't understand if we are supposed to compensate for the lack of performance of the TSE itself, or If we should adjust for the external factors like wind, etc.

I don't know precisely what Bradmick has stated, but yes it is normal to need to compensate by slightly offsetting the aimpoint and re-stabilizing to shift the rounds onto target. It won't always be uniform since the variables that affect all of this are varied and numerous. However, off-axis gun shots while in forward flight are more ideal for suppression, even when using the fancy calculations performed by TADS. If you want to increase the chances of a tight grouping on a target in forward flight, put the target in front of the helicopter to minimize the impact all of these variables have on the gun solution.

The dispersion of the gun aside (since it is an area effect weapon after all), the bottom line is there is a lot of math being done to shoot these rounds from a moving helicopter and ensure they land on or around a target that is over a mile away, whether it is in real-life or in DCS; and the values that are being input into these calculations are constantly changing every fraction of a second. You should always be doing whatever you can to minimize the variation and magnitude of these variables to increase the effectiveness of the weapon. However, as a ballistic munition, it will never be a fool-proof, super-accurate weapon system.

[Wawar]

2 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

LMC is almost always used when intending to employ the TSE, because LMC (or IAT) helps ensure a stable TADS line-of-sight on the intended target. If LMC is not used, it is likely the TADS line-of-sight will be jerking around the target to some extent (unless the CPG has really fine motor skills in his right thumb, like George), which creates variations in the ballistic solution. LMC does not enable TSE, but LMC (when manual tracking) or IAT (when automatic tracking) ensures the TADS position is stable and consistent for better TSE calculations.

I don't know precisely what Bradmick has stated, but yes it is normal to need to compensate by slightly offsetting the aimpoint and re-stabilizing to shift the rounds onto target. It won't always be uniform since the variables that affect all of this are varied and numerous. However, off-axis gun shots while in forward flight are more ideal for suppression, even when using the fancy calculations performed by TADS. If you want to increase the chances of a tight grouping on a target in forward flight, put the target in front of the helicopter to minimize the impact all of these variables have on the gun solution.

The dispersion of the gun aside (since it is an area effect weapon after all), the bottom line is there is a lot of math being done to shoot these rounds from a moving helicopter and ensure they land on or around a target that is over a mile away, whether it is in real-life or in DCS; and the values that are being input into these calculations are constantly changing every fraction of a second. You should always be doing whatever you can to minimize the variation and magnitude of these variables to increase the effectiveness of the weapon. However, as a ballistic munition, it will never be a fool-proof, super-accurate weapon system.

Considering the complexity (A/C moving in 3D, the gimballed gun, the recoil, etc) and the fact that these variables change every fraction of a second, I find that the gun does rather well in terms of grouping, and that on the contrary, the CEP is relatively low. 

However, the “point of impact” seems to be on the side. The rounds are well grouped, uniformly, but next to the target, not on it. (Clearly visible in the clip I recorded and posted above) Which made me wonder if it was correctly working. (The TSE seems to be compensating correctly, but not in the right spot)

So I've got the answer to my question : TSE limitation. 

Thanks for the details and the quick reply. 

EDIT : Last question about the gun : In case of FCR gun targeting, is the TSE supposed to work?

Edited July 19, 2024 by Wawar