TACAN and ICLS approach questions...

[Hootman9104]

So I've been at the F/A-18 for about a month now, working through tutorials and building my HOTAS and Voiceattack profiles, progressing nicely. Actually a little surprised that a lot about the F/A-18 is intuitive once you figure out the DDI's and UFC.

Anyways, set up ME to allow me to practice carrier takeoff and landings on the GW. Got the launches down now, and working on the traps.

So I started just using the TACAN approaches, that's ok, but a little hard to figure out the angle. I'm coming approaching way too low, working on that, but one question I have reference a TACAN approach. Is there a standard CRS offset for the TACAN that would line you up with the angle of the landing deck on the carrier, so if you approach using THAT CRS offset, you'll be lined up with the landing deck? I hope this question makes sense. 

Reference the ICLS approach. That's pretty simple, just a few steps. Here's my dilemma though. I find myself not knowing the proper altitude I should be at to intercept the glide slope. Going off what the carrier is telling me (and I'm assuming I'm interpreting this correctly) I set up the TACAN with the heading course they say (343 in my case), set the CRS line at 343, and fly outbound for 163 climbing to 7,000 out to 22 miles. I then turn back inbound to 343, getting down to 250 knts, dropping the gear and hook, and going flaps full setting up my AoA (I've got that process down pretty well).

So my questions on the ICLS approach:

1. How far out does the carrier ILS transmit? I seem to pick up the localizer far out, research shows that a standard ILS localizer can broadcast out to about 18 miles, but that far out it's not super accurate, but I do pick it up. Research also states the localizer becomes pretty accurate 10 miles out, and that some aircraft and/or localizer can be picked up much further out. The glideslope indicator comes in much later. research shows that at 10 miles. 

2. At what altitude should I be approaching to pick up the ICLS? As noted, the carrier has me climb to 7000 outbound, but I don't really see anything telling me what altitude to approach at (I may very well be missing a radio interaction?) The reason for the question is I'm looking for the optimum altitude to intercept the glideslope at. If I can't figure that out, I'm toast. trying to chase a glideslope at a descent rate of 2000 fpm 5 miles from the deck is, well, suicidal no? 

3. Also, it appears I can have TACAN and ILS operational at the same time. Is that correct, and is that useful? I THINK it is, and having the TACAN course line helps keep me on path approaching the carrier until the ILS kicks in.

My last attempt I intercepted the glidescope at 7.5 miles out, approaching at 3000 feet. That probably indicate that I'm coming in too low, no? I did almost make it, but hit the end of the deck. 

Also the ICLS seems a bit screwy near the end, making me take a late right course correction, and back to the left. Doesn't seem superaccurate near the end.

[Coyle]

You'll want to read up on CASE I, and CASE III procedures. CASE II is mix of both (starts CASE III, then transitions to CASE I.

If you're really set on doing 'ICLS approaches' first, then read up on CASE III first. Though it may be best to work towards and refine doing CASE I landings first, at land or at the boat.

Edit:
Have a read through this guide, as it'll tell you pretty much everything you need to know
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hShIyjq1Cf8MQSAcwk5k1IhSMdvqpUok/view
which can be found with discussion in this thread.

Edited June 20, 2024 by Coyle

[Phantom711]

Also chck this out. It is very comprehensive and yet only on a few pages.

 

[t1mb0b]

just start here, everything else you need is also available on Matts channel

 

 

Edited June 20, 2024 by t1mb0b

[Skeet]

FWIW, for a Case III Approach, what you are referring to as ICLS Approach, I personally set my courseline bearing to the “Final Bearing” as opposed to the “Base Recovery Course”. They are going to be different by nine degrees; the BRC is the exact direction that the Carrier is traveling, whereas the FB accounts for the 9* angle that the deck is rotated counter-clockwise. So in answering the first question, it’s not a specific offset distance, it’s a specific angle; subtract nine degrees from the BRC.

By flying the FB, you will need to be conscience of the fact that the ship will always be traveling from your left towards your right. It is slight, but it is moving that direction. From a distance it will be negligible, but as you get closer to the ship it becomes more pronounced. When you get within 3/4 mile, your alignment needs to be over towards the superstructure, as the ship will continue to move to starboard and you will want to account for that drift.

[Hootman9104]

Good stuff, and thanks. I should have thought to look at the Case I-III recoveries, but being an Army Aviation guy IRL the vast majority of my experience is into actual fixed airfields shooting for a helipad if available,  or FOB's where just about anything goes. Departures are similar as well, most controllers are happy with helos as they can get you out of their hair quite quickly and will accept just about anything you ask to do for departure as long as it gets you away from the airfield. 

Reading through those should provide most of the answers, and the angle of 9 degrees for the deck is definitely something I was looking for. It's really hard to see how you're lined up to the deck until it's almost too late, and I've usually been lined up too far left. Still learning the IFLOLS and how it relates to aircraft position, seems a little hinky at times compared to the ICLS, but I'm sure that's because I'm not lined up correctly. 

It's a lot to digest but I pick things up pretty well and have a set pattern of learning aircraft and systems that works for me, programming the HOTAS and Voiceattack while reading the manuals for the system I'm setting, all while sitting in the aircraft. Sort of a "learn" followed by "do" method.

Thanks again, and I'm sure I'll have more questions which I'll ask in this same thread.

[TonyRS]

You’ll pick up the localiser (hdg) some distance out but don’t expect the glide-scope ‘needle’ till within about 6 miles. So, before 6 miles, configure for landing & trim for Speed on AoA fly at 1,200 ft. As you approach within about 6 miles @ 1,200ft you should pick up the glide scope ‘needle’ above your horizon line. As you get closer, maintaining your altitude, the glide-scope needle will move down to your horizon line, on your HUD, as you start to intercept it. When glide-scope ‘needle’ is on your horizon line, power back, to start your final descent, let the glide-scope ‘needle’ AND your velocity vector drop, together, until both are at 3.5 degrees down on your pitch ladder. You’ll be working the throttles continuously to maintain yourself on the glide-scope. Fly down the glide scope from there! Anyway, that’s what I do. But, happy to stand corrected by those with more knowledge!

Edited June 21, 2024 by TonyRS

[Coyle]

3 hours ago, TonyRS said:

You’ll pick up the localiser (hdg) some distance out but don’t expect the glide-scope ‘needle’ till within about 6 miles. So, before 6 miles, configure for landing & trim for Speed on AoA fly at 1,200 ft. As you approach within about 6 miles @ 1,200ft you should pick up the glide scope ‘needle’ above your horizon line. As you get closer, maintaining your altitude, the glide-scope needle will move down to your horizon line, on your HUD, as you start to intercept it. When glide-scope ‘needle’ is on your horizon line, power back, to start your final descent, let the glide-scope ‘needle’ AND your velocity vector drop, together, until both are at 3.5 degrees down on your pitch ladder. You’ll be working the throttles continuously to maintain yourself on the glide-scope. Fly down the glide scope from there! Anyway, that’s what I do. But, happy to stand corrected by those with more knowledge!

 

ICLS is bullseye. Not needles. I'm serious.

It's a terrible DCSism picked up from people flying exclusively ICLS for 5 years before ED ever implemented ACLS, exacerbated by the fact the navy decided to mismatch the names 'needles' (a tiny circle) with bullseye (the lines). Only ACLS is called needles.

If for whatever reason you don't fly with ACLS, you do not respond a 'needle' position, you'd say negative needles. The voice lines were/are incorrect for this matter.

Edited June 21, 2024 by Coyle

[Skeet]

13 hours ago, TonyRS said:

You’ll pick up the localiser (hdg) some distance out but don’t expect the glide-scope ‘needle’ till within about 6 miles. So, before 6 miles, configure for landing & trim for Speed on AoA fly at 1,200 ft. As you approach within about 6 miles @ 1,200ft you should pick up the glide scope ‘needle’ above your horizon line. As you get closer, maintaining your altitude, the glide-scope needle will move down to your horizon line, on your HUD, as you start to intercept it. When glide-scope ‘needle’ is on your horizon line, power back, to start your final descent, let the glide-scope ‘needle’ AND your velocity vector drop, together, until both are at 3.5 degrees down on your pitch ladder. You’ll be working the throttles continuously to maintain yourself on the glide-scope. Fly down the glide scope from there! Anyway, that’s what I do. But, happy to stand corrected by those with more knowledge!

 

I do just like that as well.

@Hootman, one other system that is very useful is the alignment light at the stern of the carrier; Red, Amber, & Green. Prior to DCS updates you could see it from 25-30 miles out on a clear night; now it seems like it doesn’t become visible until I am inside of six miles, but still very useful.

Red, Amber, and Green- Left to Right in that order, if you see the light as Red you are left.  If you see it as Green then you are right. Amber you are right down the middle!  If they are flashing Red or Flashing Green it is telling you, “You’re Way Off, Get Over!”

It is a more precise indication than the vertical ILS line on the HUD, so in addition to flying the ILS needle (bullseye I guess according to the last post), watch for that light. Because the ship is moving left to right just a little, I like to approach right on the green to amber area; literally if it just changes from amber to green, then back to amber, then to green - that’s going to align me over there on that superstructure side and an easier trap. Or at least easier for me.

[TonyRS]

Good point about the lights Unfortunately, at my age, I’ve trouble seeing them clearly enough in time so, neglected to mention them  
But, of course, you may be following your Localiser & Glide-Scope ‘indicators’ (???) in 600yd visibility, for example  

Edited June 21, 2024 by TonyRS

[Razor18]

21 hours ago, AG-51_Skeet said:

FWIW, for a Case III Approach, what you are referring to as ICLS Approach, I personally set my courseline bearing to the “Final Bearing” as opposed to the “Base Recovery Course”. They are going to be different by nine degrees; the BRC is the exact direction that the Carrier is traveling, whereas the FB accounts for the 9* angle that the deck is rotated counter-clockwise. So in answering the first question, it’s not a specific offset distance, it’s a specific angle; subtract nine degrees from the BRC.

By flying the FB, you will need to be conscience of the fact that the ship will always be traveling from your left towards your right. It is slight, but it is moving that direction. From a distance it will be negligible, but as you get closer to the ship it becomes more pronounced. When you get within 3/4 mile, your alignment needs to be over towards the superstructure, as the ship will continue to move to starboard and you will want to account for that drift.

When CASE III, Mother will tell you the Final Bearing in the comms anyways.

[Hootman9104]

More good points. I noticed the stern light, though red meant off and green was good. So I'm looking for amber.

Been practicing both approaches, and one thing I noticed watching some real life Youtube in cockpit cameras, the pilots aren't afraid to move that cyclic around in small increments and be pretty aggressive on the power up and down. I was trying to "fine" tune the throttle in increments and only use the cyclic for left and right, but after watching them I have now been getting a little more agressive with the power up and down, and using the cyclic a bit more as long as I stay in the E bracket. I'm finding that method a lot better than trying to approach with miniscule fine tuning. In other words, I'm being a little more proactive actually "flying" the jet, and think I'm getting it down and having better results staying on glide path and aligned. Flying like that, and the types of movements I'm making seem to pretty much mirror about the same amount of movements the pilots IRL are doing in those videos.

I've managed to trap a few times, and getting more comfortable doing it. Practice, Practice, Practice.

A couple of traps though, I hit the stern and absolutely mangled the landing gear. Plane captains not happy about that, no doubt.

[Foka]

19 hours ago, Hootman9104 said:

More good points. I noticed the stern light, though red meant off and green was good. So I'm looking for amber.

Been practicing both approaches, and one thing I noticed watching some real life Youtube in cockpit cameras, the pilots aren't afraid to move that cyclic around in small increments and be pretty aggressive on the power up and down. I was trying to "fine" tune the throttle in increments and only use the cyclic for left and right, but after watching them I have now been getting a little more agressive with the power up and down, and using the cyclic a bit more as long as I stay in the E bracket. I'm finding that method a lot better than trying to approach with miniscule fine tuning. In other words, I'm being a little more proactive actually "flying" the jet, and think I'm getting it down and having better results staying on glide path and aligned. Flying like that, and the types of movements I'm making seem to pretty much mirror about the same amount of movements the pilots IRL are doing in those videos.

I've managed to trap a few times, and getting more comfortable doing it. Practice, Practice, Practice.

A couple of traps though, I hit the stern and absolutely mangled the landing gear. Plane captains not happy about that, no doubt.

1. Cyclic is in helicopters - it refers to how helicopter works. Planes have stick.

2. When watching YT real videos be very cautious what you're watching. Most of them show Super Hornet which works considerably different that Legacy one, because Super Hornets have Magic Carpet system. It's easy to identify in the cockpit video - legacy Hornet has UFC with "hardware" buttons, Super Hornet has UFC in the form of touch LCD screen.

 

 

[Hootman9104]

On 6/22/2024 at 2:46 PM, Foka said:

1. Cyclic is in helicopters - it refers to how helicopter works. Planes have stick.

I work in the F-16 spares program IRL and the AF F-16 engineers at the Engineering Support Activity (ESA) at Hill AFB always pick at me because I continually use a lot of "rotorhead" terminology, like referring to AFCS (UH-60) instead of FLCS (F-16). 20 years in Army Aviation will do that.

We were recently discussing the F-16 stick in depth as they're replacing / upgrading every stick in the USAF fleet in the near future and I used the word cyclic in a bunch of emails . 

[Skeet]

On 6/21/2024 at 1:00 PM, Razor18 said:

When CASE III, Mother will tell you the Final Bearing in the comms anyways.

Yes, you bring up a very good point. When Mother is calling for a Case III, she will have already accounted for that nine degrees and provide the Final Bearing in her directions. New pilots should be cognizant that they should not subtract the deck angle as she has already done so in a Case III condition. That said, this is a computer simulator, she will only give you a Case III if it is night and/or rainy-fog.

In the Original Post if the pilot is just practicing an ICLS (Case III) in what would elsewise be good weather, and daylight conditions, Mother is not going to know that you are practicing for the ICLS. Because it is daylight, she is going to give directions for a Case I approach. With that, she will be providing BRC and you will need to do some math.

[jaylw314]

Also, at typical ballpark speeds (150 knots approach, carrier speed 30 knots), you would expect to be heading about 2 degrees to the RIGHT of the final heading.  So if BRC is 270, and final heading is 261, expect your actual heading to be about 263 to stay on the centerline, which is the same idea as putting the FPM on the "crotch" at 3/4 mile

Edited June 26, 2024 by jaylw314