Rudder input.

[S D]

Hey guys, im just posting this as a matter of curiosity. I have a set of rudder pedals which i use for DCS.

 

Now i always invert the input of these, so that when i press down on the right pedal the aircraft yaws left and vice versa. This just feels natural to me, where as using it the correct way round feels weird.

 

Maybe its just because i am used to it, does anyone else do this?

[EtherealN]

I believe there was one person ages ago that mentioned that (and actually believed that that was the correct way and that DCS somehow had gotten it wrong). But it doesn't seem to be common.

 

I really would encourage you to unlearn that behaviour though, since it really is wrong. :P I understand the logic of it acting a bit like when one turns with a bicycle, but using that in an aircraft would mean that you also have to invert all routines towards learning to fly cleanly ("step on the ball" wouldn't work anymore, and so on).

 

And besides, you'll have a monumentally big difficulty unlearning that if you ever decide to start flying real aircraft, which isn't as financially impossible as many think.

[S77th-ReOrdain]

Yes. Unfortunately, I do this too. I think this feels natural to me because I equate it to the feeling of cornering in a vehicle or pivoting. If I turn left, I lean into the turn. For me (former athlete), pivoting by planting my left foot (if I'm turning left) just seems more natural.

 

Even though this is wrong, I continue to reverse my pedal inputs, because most of the time I'm using them unconsciously. In the heat of battle, I don't have to think about it.

[EtherealN]

It just takes a bit of practice to reverse it, really. When I started flying IRL I had never had a set of pedals for my simulator, so it took me a couple of flights to stop trying to twist the stick and start using the pedals instead. (You should have heard my instructor when he found out what was happening in the front seat. :D ) But that really wasn't much more than a few flights before I was getting it right. (And I then immediately put all home simulator flying on hold until I had the pedals, so as to not re-learn the erroneous behaviour again...)

 

Not that I'm going to deride anyone for doing it the inverted way, I just think it would make it easier for you to take the step towards real aircraft if you ever do decide to do that. (And you should, it's way more fun than flying DCS, which is saying something. :P )

[DMarkwick]

I know what you mean, it does seem counterintuitive at first. I think it's a matter of thinking in surfaces instead of wheels. With wheels, you obviously turn it to move in that direction. When you imagine it as a surface however, you imagine the rudder poking out of the side you're depressing, and the oncoming airflow moving across it and forcing the back of the aircraft away from it.

 

(The other way to imagine it if you wish to stick with wheels is to imagine that the wheel is in fact at the back of the aircraft ;))

[EtherealN]

Well, I think of it more as me pushing on the side I want movement towards, so pushing right foot turns me to the right. This also aids in getting a clean flight, since if the ball in the sideslip indicator is on the right side, I "step on the ball" with my right foot to center it.

 

Same way as with the collective and cyclic - when I pull the collective up the helicopter will start moving up, when I push it down it will descend. When I tilt the cyclic right the helicopter will tilt right, and when I tilt the cyclic back the helicopter will tilt backwards. So basically, each movement I make with my hands and feet will cause the helicopter to perform the same movement.

[Guest]

Speaking of rudders, I was thinking about this questions awhile ago: If I were to buy a set of rudder pedals, are there any sets that have force feedback? Or better yet is there a way to disable rudder trim locking in the BS?

[S D]

Cheers for the replies guys.

 

Even though this is wrong, I continue to reverse my pedal inputs, because most of the time I'm using them unconsciously. In the heat of battle, I don't have to think about it.

 

This is exactly the way i am, i need to be able to use my rudder controls without thinking about it. Gonna try a few flights un-inverted just to see.

[Frederf]

I don't think there are any FF pedals available (or if DCS would support them if they existed) but the patch is supposed to allow you to have a FFB joystick and non-FFB pedals and have trim work right (which it doesn't now).

[Guest]

I don't think there are any FF pedals available (or if DCS would support them if they existed) but the patch is supposed to allow you to have a FFB joystick and non-FFB pedals and have trim work right (which it doesn't now).

 

Awesome, this is good news for me

[nemises]

Cheers for the replies guys.

 

 

 

This is exactly the way i am, i need to be able to use my rudder controls without thinking about it. Gonna try a few flights un-inverted just to see.

 

I've managed to make the switch from inverted to non over the last few months (IL2, lomac and BS) .. feel natural to "step on the ball" now .. kind of weird at first, but doesnt take too long if you want to make the switch...

[Frazer]

Yes. Unfortunately, I do this too. I think this feels natural to me because I equate it to the feeling of cornering in a vehicle or pivoting. If I turn left, I lean into the turn. For me (former athlete), pivoting by planting my left foot (if I'm turning left) just seems more natural.

 

Even though this is wrong, I continue to reverse my pedal inputs, because most of the time I'm using them unconsciously. In the heat of battle, I don't have to think about it.

 

ED (DCS) made endless efford to create the most realistic helo sim so I would suggest, unlearn the inverted rudder input and go for the real deal (who knows you may end up in a real chopper/aircraft one day) :smilewink:

It might take some time, but eventually it will feel natural.

 

I even inverted the X52 throttle (collective) for the helo.

[EtherealN]

I was lucky on the collective for my stick - it's a Saitek Cyborg, and with the placement of the "throttle" there it is pull-for-power by default. :D

 

The hilarious thing is I actually took part in a heated debate on the subject before I thought of that. :P

[S77th-ReOrdain]

I think I've been shamed enough into giving the correct way a try for a week, or so. :). Hopefully, I'll get used to it quickly and make the switch permanent.

[159th_Viper]

I think I've been shamed enough into giving the correct way a try for a week, or so. :). Hopefully, I'll get used to it quickly and make the switch permanent.

 

Up and until about a month ago I had been utilizing the IFF Out/In buttons on the Cougar Throttle as the Rudder Inputs....my CH Pedals then arrived and it took me a wee while of having to wean myself off the button, never mind having to learn flying with Pedals.......

 

'Tis True what they say - Damright Near Impossible to teach an 'Ol Dog New Tricks........:music_whistling:

[ericinexile]

Interestingly, many early aviation pioneers had the same discussion. Some successfully flew with the reversed rudder configuration and were adamant that this was more intuitive. that was then...this is now. Left goes left, right goes right.

 

Smokin' Hole

[Safari Ken]

I have to admit, I never considered inverting the rudder control, but when I graduated from the twist-handle to actual pedals, it took me a little while to get used to it. In a plane, it makes perfect sense, but in a helicopter, especially rotating in a hover or near-hover, it really does seem more natural to have it inverted. Of course, it was just a matter of getting used to it.

[S D]

This just feels horrible :cry:

 

Getting there slowly though...

[JDski]

Get used to it. It felt weird for me to switch from a right side shifter on my old Triumph to the left on my newer one. But I had no choice. Now after a few shifts, I can switch from one bike to another without issues.

I flew sims for years until I finally went for my licence. Developing a habit like that could have been disasterous.

If you really feel you need to have your pedals inverted, maybe a tank sim is more in order? They actually do work that way in a tank. :-)

[Cap_Z]

This discussion seems so weird to me. Although I can see how some might get it confused, I always intuitively got it right from the first time I flew so many years ago. Right foot, right rudder, right turn. Left foot, left rudder, left turn.

 

One way I might suggest to get accustomed to proper usage would be to load up Microsoft Flight Simulator and just taxi around an airport in a fixed wing of your choice.

[Frakin Toasters]

Actually you know what, i just read through this thread and immediately started thinking "man what are these people on, how can inverting the peddles feel natural?" But then i realised that i've never spent a lot of time using rudder peddles in any simulator, apart from maybe once or twice in an arcade aircraft game. It feels weird in my mind at first because i've always used a twist axis, and in battlefield 2142 i use the left and right arrow buttons as i fly with the mouse, so pressing the side you want to go in seems more logical. But then i had a real long think about it and tried to imagine myself doing it in a real cockpit, and i actually can imagine an inverted system being very intuitive. It would take some getting used to of course, but there's nothing concrete about having it the non-reversed way that would may it impractical or overly illogical to have it reversed. I guess it's less of thinking about where your feet are and more about what position your legs/thighs are in. When it's inverted, your knee would point in the direction you want to turn, which makes sense if you train yourself to think that way.

Edited May 12, 2009 by Frakin' Toasters

[EtherealN]

Yeah Frakin, my principal objection to the rudder inversion really is that it might cause issues in other circumstances simply through being non-standard. For example, if you're flying inverted and someone instructs you to "step on the ball"... You'll step on the ball and make the problem worse. :P

 

All such things aren't exactly insurmountible as long as you know you're doing it, so it's not like I'd want to crusify anyone for it. It's just me feeling that I am more helpful if I prod people towards the "correct" way of doing it, since then they won't have to unlearn anything if they start flying IRL.

 

Another reason why it may feel intuitive to use the pedals in the inverted way, btw, is due to twist-sticks. The way most twist-sticks work you'll actually end up having an analog to the inverted pedals (right side of the stick or hand moves forward, aircraft yaws left).

[Safari Ken]

Another reason why it may feel intuitive to use the pedals in the inverted way, btw, is due to twist-sticks. The way most twist-sticks work you'll actually end up having an analog to the inverted pedals (right side of the stick or hand moves forward, aircraft yaws left).

 

Hey, I think you hit it right on the head there! :thumbup: A twist stick is "normal", in that you twist left to yaw left, but it's also "inverted", because in a way, you're pushing on the right side of the stick. That's exactly why I had trouble with the conversion, I realize, now that you've said it. Your whole body becomes a surrogate for the missing twist handle, and inversion feels perfectly natural.

 

I feel like pointing out that I've never actually set my rudders to be inverted, just that I had a little unexpected trouble converting from a twist handle to the pedals. After a few sessions it wasn't an issue, however.

[EtherealN]

Count yourself lucky - I found that out through the trouble I got when I moved from simulator with twist-stick to real aircraft with pedals. My instructor hated me in the beginning. :D

[JG14_Smil]

so.. if you were to fly a plane, you would ask them to reverse the rudder linkage? Push right, go right.. what could be more natural?