What model/version is ED's F-5 supposed to represent?

[Viper33]

Is our F-5 based off a Swiss one or something else?

Edited December 6, 2024 by Viper33

[VPS_SPIT]

Not really. Swiss F-5s have INS, UHF and VHF radios and anti skid (+more)

[nairb121]

As far as I can tell, it's a USAF F-5E-3 exactly as represented in the -1 manual – except with the AN/ALR-87 RWR and AN/ALE-40 countermeasure dispenser added (and now an optional non-functional dorsal spine antenna).

[razo+r]

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/211678-dcs-f5e-model-errors-mix-mash-of-avionics-from-various-versions/#comments

[XpRiV]

Model wise, it appears to be Swiss. It has a Swiss nose and a Swiss ident number in the cockpit.

[dSAF Dancer]

1 hour ago, XpRiV said:

Model wise, it appears to be Swiss

outside model, yes and also the radar and rwr appear to be the swiss export version but the radio is not correct for the swiss version and the ins is missing that was installed in these birds.

So it is a early us f-5e with an rwr and radar that only the export models received, strange combination

[Schmidtfire]

Perhaps new Radio and INS was incremental updates and not included in the initial batch of F-5E-3?

Strange choice perhaps, but I think Belsimtek wanted to add value with the RWR without going into INS and more advanced radio. Also, might also be a documentation thing aswell. Since they had trouble finding info on things like AGM-65 integration.

In my opinion they could have added a few more optional items and called it ”ED edition” (sort of like the Ka-50 III). It’s already a bit of s Frankenstein edition anyways.

 

 

[coreyhkh]

A huge missed opportunity for a plane that has seen so many upgrades, it would have been amazing if they went the same route as the f-1 and did multiple versions. But I guess they would need more then 7000 man hours for that lol 

Edited December 9, 2024 by coreyhkh

[jye0622]

Personally I am willing to pay the upgrade fee, such as the production quality of aerges. If I buy F1CE and then spend 10 US dollars to upgrade to F1EE or 20 US dollars to upgrade to F1M, I will be willing to do so! But aerges directly developed four models of the Spanish Mirage F1 and I am very satisfied,and have been looking forward to the F1M under development; or to give an example that will not happen, for example, if Heatblur produces the F-16A, I will be willing to pay for various F-16 blockXX upgrades at US$10~15 or even US$20~25.

The F-5E remastered appearance is beautiful, but unfortunately it does not include the Swiss version of UHF and VHF.maybe ED can provide everyone with the upgrade plan for the cockpit?!

[VPS_SPIT]

On 12/6/2024 at 11:34 PM, VPS_SPIT said:

Not really. Swiss F-5s have INS, UHF and VHF radios and anti skid (+more)

By the way here is a 360 view of the swiss cockpit... Can you spot the difference... 

https://www.mediathek.admin.ch/media/vr/611e02ed-3dfd-4d51-827f-38f6d31acf19

Edited December 22, 2024 by VPS_SPIT

[BalkanBattler]

It's not a USAF F-5E-3 because the USAF F-5E-3 did not have this RWR or Countermeasures. The Swiss F-5E had this RWR and CM's but it also had an INS and Digital radios from factory, which the remaster does not have. The USN purchased these F5-E's back from Switzerland and converted them, removing the guns, adding CATM's/ AIM-9M, and a bunch of avionics changes including MFD's, and they re-named it F-5N. 

So the F-5E we have is a franken-jet. It represents no version at all. 

To bring it up to Swiss accuracy, ED would need to implement the INS and Digital radios. The Swiss F-5E's also quad carried heatseekers. 

[nairb121]

Wags confirmed in the Discord that it is intended to be the Swiss F-5E, but they cannot currently implement INS or digital radios due to lack of documentation.

Edited January 20 by nairb121
Fixing image attachment

[Hotel Tango]

On 1/14/2025 at 6:44 PM, BalkanBattler said:

It's not a USAF F-5E-3 because the USAF F-5E-3 did not have this RWR or Countermeasures. The Swiss F-5E had this RWR and CM's but it also had an INS and Digital radios from factory, which the remaster does not have. The USN purchased these F5-E's back from Switzerland and converted them, removing the guns, adding CATM's/ AIM-9M, and a bunch of avionics changes including MFD's, and they re-named it F-5N. 

So the F-5E we have is a franken-jet. It represents no version at all. 

To bring it up to Swiss accuracy, ED would need to implement the INS and Digital radios. The Swiss F-5E's also quad carried heatseekers. 

It represents no version at all, but somehow they can't add the Air Refueling Probe because "it's not acurate". 
They should split the F-5 into diferent versions if they want to be accurate about the Aggressors/ Swiss or export versions (pointy nose and tigershark nose too), but we know that this is not going to happen.
Aerges aproach to the same issue is, in comparison, very comprehensive for the player. Minor details on the external model can be changed with arguments from the description.lua file, and they already have 3 versions on top of it (CE, EE and BE), with one more in the works (F1M).

[Fiber]

What really bugs me is that ED says they go for most accurate representation, yet they make bigger stretches to accommodate equipment in their Hornet (to not mention the F-35 LOL). The F5-E has so much potential with so little to add… And I simply cannot understand with the amount of people asking for those upgrades, ED simply chooses to take the other way around. 

[BalkanBattler]

On 1/20/2025 at 9:25 AM, Hotel Tango said:

It represents no version at all, but somehow they can't add the Air Refueling Probe because "it's not acurate". 
They should split the F-5 into diferent versions if they want to be accurate about the Aggressors/ Swiss or export versions (pointy nose and tigershark nose too), but we know that this is not going to happen.
Aerges aproach to the same issue is, in comparison, very comprehensive for the player. Minor details on the external model can be changed with arguments from the description.lua file, and they already have 3 versions on top of it (CE, EE and BE), with one more in the works (F1M).

yes I agree and I think the best option would be to follow ED's own history and configure the most relevant example of the F-5E.

The point of the F-5E TIGER II is that it was purpose built for exporting (unlike the freedom fighter F-5A which was built to sell to the USAF and then selected for Military Assistance Program)

The F-5E Tiger II was factory built with the option for Aerial Refueling for example 

In DCS we see that often the module that is selected for development is the "ultimate version" which connects to the "original vision" and will sell the most units:

For example -

F/A-18C, NOT F/A-18A
F-16C, NOT F-15A
F-15C, NOT F-15A

WHY? because these are more capable, carry more weapons, and better represent the evolution of the jet 

YET

WAGS says we now have the swiss buyback F-5E, which is an F-5N
WHY do we need an F-5N? Stateside they took the guns and radar out and used it as an aggressor. Is ED changing the name to DCS F-5N? 

INSTEAD

I Propose ED follow their own habits and update an F-5E that is the best representation of the export fighter
For example, the Saudi F-5E has these export options with no other changes to to the cockpit besides a few switches:

Aerial refueling probe 
Mavericks 

 

Maverick requires these steps:

• Turn switch to AGM-65 (disconnects trigger from gun)
• Wait 3 minutes for gyro warm up
• Arm stations 
• Light should turn green 
• Turn radar screen to TV (APQ-159-1)
• Pull trigger all the way to jettison protective cover
• depress radar AQ button
• slew with radar cursor stick
• release radar acq button to lock target
• depress if bad lock and release to reacquire/lock
• pickle button to fire 
• order is left to right 

Aerial refueling requires these steps:

• Aerial refueling with external tanks requires no switch manipulation whatsoever, you just plug and start taking fuel to internal tanks. 

If attempting to refuel with external tanks, you need to do the following steps before plugging in:

• Select external tanks to feed on fuel panel (this opens the valves) 
• throw AERIAL REFUEL switch (to depressurize external tanks)
• plug in and take fuel (ext fuel light on right panel will extinguish when tanks are full)
• once full, disconnect from drogue and deselect external tanks 
• turn AERIAL REFUEL SWITCH to off (pressurizes external tanks again) 

This is all in the F-5E TO -1  (dash one)

 

ED PLEASE CONSIDER MODELING AN ACTUAL F-5E, NOT AN F-5N 
YOU ALREADY HAVE THE EXTERNAL MODEL OF AN EXPORT F-5E
THE ONLY CHANGES YOU WOULD NEED ARE COCKPIT CHANGES:

Aerial refueling switch (Fuel panel) (I can send you pictures)
Aerial refueling panel (empty spot in the cockpit right now) (I can send you pictures)
APQ-159-1 SCREEN (same radar display just with TV option)
Green lights above the arming switches
AGM-65 weapon select switch option (next to rkts/dispense)

 

[nairb121]

I'm not sure I agree with some of the interpretations of what our F-5E is/isn't, or should/shouldn't be.

Per Wags, it is a Swiss F-5E-3, of the type that would later be bought back by the USN. It is not an F-5N - this is a later stage of its life than it is intended to represent. The F-5N NATOPS is a valuable source for the systems that were retained after the USN's acquisition, but T.O. F-5E-1 is clearly ED's primary source for the F-5's system modeling. The 1984 version containing the F-5E-3 is the latest I've seen, but please correct me if there's a later revision.

From the evidence I've seen, quad AIM-9 carriage is a plausible capability for the Swiss F-5E-3. It should also be equipped with INS and digital radios, as the aircraft it is intended to represent was. If the F-5N NATOPS is a usable source, then I believe the latter should be a possibility for the DCS F-5E. Quad sidewinders are up to ED - but employment would be pretty self-explanatory, so I doubt there would be much stopping them from adding them if they chose to.

I am not aware of any -1 manual indicating Maverick carriage or AAR capability on an F-5E-3 similar to ours, but I would love to see one. While the baseline F-5E's fuel system was designed with AAR upgrades in mind - it is not a simple removable probe; there are still modifications to the airframe to add it, ones that "our" F-5E did not have.

That's not to say I wouldn't like to have a more modular F-5E to better represent a wide variety of operators - it'd be great to have that option. But all F-5E's are not created equal, and we were never promised "one F-5E to rule them all."

[_BringTheReign_]

On 1/23/2025 at 10:05 AM, nairb121 said:

That's not to say I wouldn't like to have a more modular F-5E to better represent a wide variety of operators - it'd be great to have that option. But all F-5E's are not created equal, and we were never promised "one F-5E to rule them all."

Good points all, and also I think the reason there is more discussion with this remaster is that the F-5E we had (pre-remaster) was specifically a USAF F-5E. Since the remaster, it is now a Swiss F-5E (or F-5N as I don't think the wording from Wags was entirely clear on that. I actually read it as this is the USN Swiss buyback version, not the Swiss F-5E itself). 
So if it was a USAF F-5E, and now it is an export F-5E.......... why not model an export F-5E that actually represents the export options? 

The Saudi F-5E's would be a great candidate as they were plumbed for aerial refueling as well as wired for Mavericks, JATO, and INS. 

The INS, aerial refueling, and JATO are actually all described in detail the T.O.-1(I), Mavericks I am still searching for a public source. 

I would sooner have a proper export variant of the F-5E as was shipped from factory with factory features like AAR, INS and Mavs, rather than a much later F-5EM or an earlier F-5C as Wags mentioned in discord... Also, I feel like that would be a LOT more work than mavs or a removable fuel probe (which 3rd parties seem to have no trouble implementing on their modules). 

I have purchased a few manuals and books, the World Air Power journal from 1996 in particular has a great feature on the F-5E covering how the Saudi's in particular paid for much of the development of the F-5E. Seems a fitting choice!

[WRCRob]

On 1/21/2025 at 11:39 AM, BalkanBattler said:

yes I agree and I think the best option would be to follow ED's own history and configure the most relevant example of the F-5E.

The point of the F-5E TIGER II is that it was purpose built for exporting (unlike the freedom fighter F-5A which was built to sell to the USAF and then selected for Military Assistance Program)

The F-5E Tiger II was factory built with the option for Aerial Refueling for example 

In DCS we see that often the module that is selected for development is the "ultimate version" which connects to the "original vision" and will sell the most units:

For example -

F/A-18C, NOT F/A-18A
F-16C, NOT F-15A
F-15C, NOT F-15A

WHY? because these are more capable, carry more weapons, and better represent the evolution of the jet 

YET

WAGS says we now have the swiss buyback F-5E, which is an F-5N
WHY do we need an F-5N? Stateside they took the guns and radar out and used it as an aggressor. Is ED changing the name to DCS F-5N? 

INSTEAD

I Propose ED follow their own habits and update an F-5E that is the best representation of the export fighter
For example, the Saudi F-5E has these export options with no other changes to to the cockpit besides a few switches:

Aerial refueling probe 
Mavericks 

 

Maverick requires these steps:

• Turn switch to AGM-65 (disconnects trigger from gun)
• Wait 3 minutes for gyro warm up
• Arm stations 
• Light should turn green 
• Turn radar screen to TV (APQ-159-1)
• Pull trigger all the way to jettison protective cover
• depress radar AQ button
• slew with radar cursor stick
• release radar acq button to lock target
• depress if bad lock and release to reacquire/lock
• pickle button to fire 
• order is left to right 

Aerial refueling requires these steps:

• Aerial refueling with external tanks requires no switch manipulation whatsoever, you just plug and start taking fuel to internal tanks. 

If attempting to refuel with external tanks, you need to do the following steps before plugging in:

• Select external tanks to feed on fuel panel (this opens the valves) 
• throw AERIAL REFUEL switch (to depressurize external tanks)
• plug in and take fuel (ext fuel light on right panel will extinguish when tanks are full)
• once full, disconnect from drogue and deselect external tanks 
• turn AERIAL REFUEL SWITCH to off (pressurizes external tanks again) 

This is all in the F-5E TO -1  (dash one)

 

ED PLEASE CONSIDER MODELING AN ACTUAL F-5E, NOT AN F-5N 
YOU ALREADY HAVE THE EXTERNAL MODEL OF AN EXPORT F-5E
THE ONLY CHANGES YOU WOULD NEED ARE COCKPIT CHANGES:

Aerial refueling switch (Fuel panel) (I can send you pictures)
Aerial refueling panel (empty spot in the cockpit right now) (I can send you pictures)
APQ-159-1 SCREEN (same radar display just with TV option)
Green lights above the arming switches
AGM-65 weapon select switch option (next to rkts/dispense)

 

Anyway you could post those pictures? I would love to see what the panels looks like, I can't find them anywhere online. 

[BalkanBattler]

20 hours ago, WRCRob said:

Anyway you could post those pictures? I would love to see what the panels looks like, I can't find them anywhere online. 

I am not sure if I am allowed to post pictures from manuals in this thread, it is usually frowned upon

[coreyhkh]

I think that is only for classified stuff 

[MAXsenna]

7 hours ago, BalkanBattler said:

I am not sure if I am allowed to post pictures from manuals in this thread, it is usually frowned upon

Is the manual from an open source pre 1980?

[RustBelt]

Is it possible Wags is just incorrect and the DCS F-5E is just representative of some other buyer nation, not the Swiss? Who else got the RWR, didn’t buy AAR, didn’t buy digital Radios? Also was Swiss 1976 tranche digital radios and INS?

[nairb121]

10 hours ago, RustBelt said:

Is it possible Wags is just incorrect and the DCS F-5E is just representative of some other buyer nation, not the Swiss?

I believe Wags was stating their intent, while noting that certain aspects were missing.

10 hours ago, RustBelt said:

Also was Swiss 1976 tranche digital radios and INS?

Stills below from "Tigris Helveticus" (Youtube link) on the original Swiss F-5 acquisition. They definitely had INS, and what appear to be dual radios (though not the modern digital interface).

Edit: to be clear though, our F-5 is from the second batch in 1981. (Serial 81-0844/J-3085 from the cockpit)

Edited March 12 by nairb121

[Dragon1-1]

ED really needs to rethink its policy on making multiple variants. Why the Swiss F-5E in particular? There were so many other versions more relevant to us than this particular one. I don't think they'd all be missing documentation.