SAITEK X65F NEW CONTROLSYSTEM

[Callsign.Vega]

Flim - did it take much getting used to the FSSB? How do you know when you're applying full pressure (so you don't stop early, or worse damage the stick?)

 

There is a normal operating pressure range that your arm gets used to. It becomes quite natural. Obviously, if you are a gorilla and put a hundred pounds of force on the stick you will most likely break it.

[Callsign.Vega]

Hi Vega,

 

as I can see this as a rotorhead... As you fly a real helicopter, you should set and hold the stick in the position the maneuver requires in pitch and roll, unlike fixed wings, where you set pitch and roll and reset the stick to center.

 

Helicopter trimming means that you set the stick's neutral position (reset force on the stick) where you hold it for your maneuver, and after this, you can release stick if you want. Some helos have this trimmer (Ka-50, Mi-24, Mi-8 ), some don't (Robinson 22). This also means that you can always do smooth maneuvers (for example, in IMC), cause you don't have to fight with the stick force (OK, R22 has almost no stick force:)). You're right, the controls are isolated, for example, in a Mi-24, cause she has hydraulic boosters, so you can't feel the aerodynamic forces themselves on your cyclic, you only have, well, artifical force feedback through multi-spring mechanism, in a determined spring characteristics. But I think no one is talking about vibration sticks here as FFB, see the reply below this.

 

BS's trimming with non-FFB sticks is, well, a kind of mixture of fixed and rotary wing trimming (as I can think of it). It is not bad, it is a good job solving this difficult problem, it is very usable, but it is caused by the limitations of non-FFB technology (what we are mostly using) and the need for helo trimming, and it is not realistic.

 

Without heli trim simulation (like in MS Flight Simulator), or without using it (if you don't do it in BS:D), you should set and hold your stick in the desired position, but this doesn't allow your hand to rest or even to fly the helo accurately. With good FFB, this can be realistic and easier.

 

So, as TrackIR, HOTAS, multi monitor, 15000 dpi laser mouse, 16.1 surround sound system etc.: FFB is not necessary, but FFB can make this ultimate helo sim more realistic.

 

Cheers!

 

Ah, I guess I miss spoke when I simply said "shaking and rumbling". I do understand that FFB can "trim" the aircraft. Although, from what I've read it doesn't work that great in BS, at least for the G940 that doesn't hold it's position when trim is engaged.

 

I have also not tried BS yet with my Cougar HOTAS, I have been playing Falcon 4 with that. Although, some guys that have force sensing Cougars say it works quite well with helicopter sim's.

 

Force sensing controls are the future of the last generation of aircraft that actually have pilots. Those aircraft are the F-22/F-35 etc. Even the most advanced helicopter ever devised had force sensing controls. Although, having the yaw actuated by rotating the stick instead of pedals is a bit odd I think. Too bad it was so advanced that the costs skyrocketed and the program was ended:

 

[Lava]

Vega, the G940 holds position just fine when trim is engaged. Whomever had that experience most likely had the new trimmer selected. There is an adjustment period as you get used to the different trimming, it's hard for me to pinpoint the difference but it's easy to end up trimmed well.

 

Force Feedback is very useful in BS and in IL-2. Does force feedback work with force-sensing mechanisms as the Saitek stick seems to have? Is anyone actually sure it has FFB?

 

Modern aircraft have isolated inputs, yes, but do they offer more resistance as you pull further on a stick? We have a lot of real pilots so I'm sure someone will enlighten me :)

 

I'll have to hop in a 'modern' flight sim that isn't BS, but I believe that's almost all the force feedback does when in a modern sim - increase resistance the more the stick is moved. Perhaps other mechanisms aside from FFB would do just as well at that... in modern jet sims.

 

(edit) After messing around a bit in Lock On, the force feedback vibrates when you're stalling, gets completely soft if you go vertical and lose all your airspeed, and bites harder if you do a high speed high G turn. Real sticks, as far as I know, usually incorporate a stick shaker for a stall warning.

 

So I'll be really curious if this is FSSB and FF, or just FSSB.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Lava

[Callsign.Vega]

No, traditional yoke/stick/cyclic flight controls do not increase load as you change their distance further from reference or center. Of course, force sensing sticks like in the F-16 and the F-22 move only very very small amounts as pressure is applied and then released.

 

Most aircraft do not have stall shaking in their flight controls. That is mainly for large aircraft like cargo and airline.

 

In your example of Lock-On flying a suspected 4th gen fighter/attack aircraft, the stick going "soft" is only there for a holly-wood effect. Those flight controls operated by hydraulics or electric servos are rated for single power levels and are isolated from feedback. Going vertical and losing speed and having your stick go soft or having to pull back harder in a high-g turn because of the increased forces exerted on the ailerons and elevator is completely unrealistic.

 

Now if we are talking about WWI planes, thats a different story with leverage and pulleys. For trim, FFB is good. All of these other shaking/rumbling/stalling/soft/hard FFB flight control forces are rubbish. The thing is, force sensing sticks can also be good for trimming if trim set and release is implemented properly. If the X65 is force sensing, I highly doubt there would be a way to get force feedback to also be viable.

[Lava]

Vega, thank you, that's exactly what I wanted to know! Hydraulics are isolated too, hmm, I'm going to have to start paying more attention to how the control surfaces in my virtual aircraft are actuated.

 

Hollywood effects, that made me laugh :) Makes sense though. I figured the FFB was better suited for WWI and WWII planes with mechanical linkages.

 

I'll pay a bit more attention to how the FFB differs from reality now ;)

 

Another question for anyone who knows: How much recoil do you get (in real life) if you fire cannon in jet aircraft like an F-15 or 16? The A-10? In IL-2 with FFB the stick and airframe shudders pretty well if you open up with all guns/cannon. Of course, that's about 6 guns, mounted in the wings, with no modern dampening.

[ruprecht]

Having not fired an aircraft-mounted weapon for real, I'm just speculating, but there would be vibration and recoil through the airframe, but generally not through the controls in a modern aircraft.

I've heard that a long enough burst from the A10's cannon can actually stall the aircraft due to the recoil.

While I agree that the FFB effects are a little bit hollywood, remember that this is the developer's way of giving the player the sense of airframe vibration through a sim that usually offers no other way to do it. Until devices such as the 3rd Space vest are commonly in use, that is the only tactile feedback method available and is not really meant to simulate *control* shaking per se.

[Callsign.Vega]

reprecht, that's correct. The whole airframe would vibrate/shake. I'd rather have my home built cockpit have a rumble type seat for stuff like cannon fire etc then only have my flight control stick shake.

[Kirai]

reprecht, that's correct. The whole airframe would vibrate/shake. I'd rather have my home built cockpit have a rumble type seat for stuff like cannon fire etc then only have my flight control stick shake.

 

This is why I have my stick placed between my legs mounted on my flight chair. I think that G940 forcefeedback will be strong enough to give vibrations through the chair, maybe not much but enough to sense it. I have not built a solid cockpit, its just a transformed office chair with all the controlls built into the chair itself :). I will find out next week when I get the logitech G940 system.

[Lava]

Ruprecht, I've heard that the "a-10 stalling from cannon recoil" is a myth. From the same source, it said originally the clouds of smoke from the gun could starve out the engines or something akin to that. They added igniters which switch on while the cannon is firing to counteract flameout.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-8_Avenger

 

Kirai, let me know how that works out. You can turn up the force feedback strength in the control panel.

[Kirai]

Kirai, let me know how that works out. You can turn up the force feedback strength in the control panel.

 

 

Yes and I will try it on max :)

[Eddie]

Seems nobody has spotted it yet, so here you go.

 

http://www.flightstore.co.uk/prod/SAIX65F/DEPT-FSIM/Y3/

 

Yep, it's available for pre-order, found a couple of retailers via google offering pre-order and proper info on specs.

 

Anyone need to buy a kidney?

[joey45]

That's a stupid price, think I'll get the Logitech. It's cheaper and you get rudder pedals.

[Eddie]

It's a good price for what you're getting imho. Full metal and force sensors to name just two features.

 

Personally I wouldn't touch that logitech lump of plastic if they gave me one for free. But each to there own, if the logitech has enough buttons for you etc then go for it, but it just doesn't meet my needs for a HOTAS. The low price worries me as well, my pedals alone cost more the the logitech effort.

[Migo]

All about tha money.

Would be best to have a Joystick on which you can switch between standard FFB and force sensors to use with helicopter and new jets :)

[joey45]

It's a good price for what you're getting imho. Full metal and force sensors to name just two features.

 

Personally I wouldn't touch that logitech lump of plastic if they gave me one for free. But each to there own, if the logitech has enough buttons for you etc then go for it, but it just doesn't meet my needs for a HOTAS. The low price worries me as well, my pedals alone cost more the the logitech effort.

 

all comes down to price and what you can afford really...

 

330 quid looks alot when you don't work.

[Eddie]

all comes down to price and what you can afford really...

 

330 quid looks alot when you don't work.

 

 

Indeed. £330 looks a lot when you do as well, but for this I'll gladly survive on beans on toast for a month or two. :thumbup:

[Fudd]

http://www.saitekusa.com/prod/x65f.htm

[Endoplasmic Reticulum]

Fudd!

Thank you for destroying my dreams like a popping soap-bubble ;). After this news I'll call my local dealer and get the G940, which i gave him back after reading the X65F announcement.

 

It's hard to believe, that such a well constructed and solid and expensive stick comes without Force-Feedback. At least for a lifetime FF user.

 

I still could'nt figure out why some preferr the Force-Sensing over FF, though. Some Force-Sensing-Missionaries in here that could explain this for me?

 

Thanx in advance and have a great (rainy) day, so you can stay home and sim around ;).

[Endoplasmic Reticulum]

Indeed. £330 looks a lot when you do as well, but for this I'll gladly survive on beans on toast for a month or two. :thumbup:

 

It seems the world-famous "English breakfast" was created by simmers that want to afford some new and expensive hardware. Am I right:joystick:?

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

This will be a perfect stick when Eagle Dynamics come up with the F-16 simulator.

[-Bazong-]

Fudd!

Thank you for destroying my dreams like a popping soap-bubble ;). After this news I'll call my local dealer and get the G940, which i gave him back after reading the X65F announcement.

 

It's hard to believe, that such a well constructed and solid and expensive stick comes without Force-Feedback. At least for a lifetime FF user.

 

I still could'nt figure out why some preferr the Force-Sensing over FF, though. Some Force-Sensing-Missionaries in here that could explain this for me?

 

Thanx in advance and have a great (rainy) day, so you can stay home and sim around ;).

 

I'll also be getting the G940 now that I know :D

I can understand why some might rather want a force sensing stick though, if you fly fighters mostly (F-16 and others has it).

Eventhough I've never tryed a force sensing stick I don't think it's for me (I like old planes and choppers mostly)...

[joey45]

It seems the world-famous "English breakfast" was created by simmers that want to afford some new and expensive hardware. Am I right:joystick:?

 

and the rest, bangers, Tomatoes, black pudding [chug] fried bread........

 

p.s. FYI it was rainning cats and dogs here yesturday...

[Feuerfalke]

There is a reason why even F-16s were refitted with a stick that at least moves a bit instead of just sensing forces.

 

As I also play WW1- and WW2-games, this is a no-go for me and even if I'd convert to a jet-only-jockey, I still prefer to have at least a moving stick. :(

[Eddie]

There is a reason why even F-16s were refitted with a stick that at least moves a bit instead of just sensing forces.

 

Aye, the pilots couldn't get used to it to start off with. The stick only moves 1/8th of an inch and the movement is only there for feel, the stick sensors themselves are purely force sensing.

 

Quite a few other jets, especially the more modern ones have force sensing sticks as well for the simple reason that they provide better control than mechanical stick sensors.

 

I feel the same about Force Feedback as a few of you seem to about force sensors, I hate it. For anything other than old prop planes and 1st gen jets it's totally unrealistic and destroys your ability to fly with any real accuracy.

 

I mean up to now, we've had to spend £170 on a Cougar and another £300 on realsimulators FSSB mod not to mention the other mods quite often needed for Cougars these days. Now we can get all of it for £330 ready made by a company that has been making good quality sticks for years.

[Feuerfalke]

I'm not looking for the ForceFeedback either. I only tried it once and even when set to my preferences couldn't convince myself of the benefits.

 

As somebody else pointed out before: If I want to feel the shake of the gun e.g. from the A-10, I'll buy a buttkicker. But I still prefer a moving stick, so I will just keep what I got and see what comes next.

 

Thinking about it, it probably isn't too difficult to mod it moving (e.g. with springs), but I don't buy a 400EUR piece of hardware to take it apart.:doh: