What fighter jet gives the F-16 the most trouble?

[cptmrcalm]

Looking for suggestions for the most difficult fighter jet to go up against when flying the F-16.

 

When flying the 16 - which jet have you most struggled with?

 

If human pilots were (hypothetically) equal - I wonder which jet would cause the biggest problems?

 

Official mods or not.

 

Interested in doing a guns only video flying the F16- but perhaps one with missiles too.

 

Has anyone produced a cool dramatic dogfight video flying the F-16 with a tough opponent? AI or human? Specifically a cinematic one rather than a tutorial style one. Would love to see what other work is out there. 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 30 by cptmrcalm

[kotor633]

Hi,

I'm asking myself a similar question right now. However, with regard to the Mig-29.

But coming back to your question: I think we should differentiate between BVR and dogfighting? I don't know much about the subject, but from what I've heard so far, a Su-27 or an F-15C are right up there with the best opponents who are supposed to make your digital life hell in air combat...

[Supernova-III]

... you know

[cptmrcalm]

Either I guess. Probably wouldnt hurt to do the BVR and then up close with me in the F16. 

 

I am using the F16 for the moment before I move away from it -Hence posting this here.

So I guess an recommendation for each scenario - unless one opponent fits the bill for both.

 

My mind thinks the F15C would be the hardest for the F16.

 

Dogfighting, with guns only, is always an interesting fight to video-but certainly not one you find yourself in often on PVP servers as 99% of the time someone has a 9x or even an 120 ready to send your way -even when really close.

 

But they do make for interesting footage and I do like to showcase a struggle. 

 

Would love to see a video showcasing an intense dogfight to see how others put it together. There are great videos out there, some I feel are better than mine, but I havent found a cinematic dogfight video yet -but I am sure someone can point me there.

[buceador]

 

[Hiob]

Guns only, top contenders of the current lineup are probably the F-18 and Mirage 2000. Taking Mods into account, the Eurofighter and the F-22. The latter outmatching the Viper clearly.

Not claiming that this is the complete list - just what comes to my mind.

Mig 29 and Su-27 will also stand a chance of course.

It'll always depend on who is able to force his game on the opponent.

Edited January 30 by Hiob

[cptmrcalm]

11 minutes ago, buceador said:

 

Lovely.

Love the slow mo of them just missing one another! how they didnt collide?

 

Slower paced this one rather than fast paced and energetic - but they have matched the pace to the music for sure!

MIG29... you know... the more I am thinking about it, the more I realise it could be an ideal opponent for sure!

 

 

12 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Guns only, top contenders of the current lineup are probably the F-18 and Mirage 2000. Taking Mods into account, the Eurofighter and the F-22. The latter outmatching the Viper clearly.

Not claiming that this is the complete list - just what comes to my mind.

Mig 29 and Su-27 will also stand a chance of course.

It'll always depend on who is able to force his game on the opponent.

Yes. The F22. I've got something lined up for that actually. 

 

I've done the 18, but the M2000 - there's another one! hmmm. thanks guys!

[darkman222]

F18 with paddle just sits in your turn circle and chills while you're wasting gas

 

M2K if you're behind him he will use his super small turn radius to deny your shots and make the viper overshoot in the end.

[Theodore42]

If you're talking about an IR missile dogfight the Viper is pretty weak. Anything that has a high instantaneous turn does really well.

If you're talking about guns only then the Viper is pretty strong.

Also, AI abilities seem varied across all the aircraft. Humans too, of course.

Probably the F-15C is the strongest AI vs the Viper imo. As for PvP, many players generally think the F-15C is strongest vs F-16 because it's an angles fighter with acceleration that keeps up with the Viper. Also the M2K is up there in PvP, but the M2K AI seems kinda weak relative to most other aircraft.

[Pillowcat]

Cessna 172 is one of the hell as I've heard. Balloons also need no less than F-22 to be in competitive challenge.

Spoiler

 

[Wizard_03]

F-15C should smoke the viper in BVR.

F-14A/B is also pretty tough in BVR.

F/A-18C should smoke the viper in WVR.

F-15C is also pretty tough in WVR.

MiG-29 is pretty tough in WVR.

 

Overall I think the F-15C is the biggest threat. But like everything in A2A it depends on the exact situation. An F-15C at full fuel is a pig and the viper will easily out rate it. Less then 50 percent fuel the Eagle is a rate monster too and can give you a run for your money. In both situations however you run the risk of running out gas way before it does, if it comes down to a straight rate fight on the deck because both planes are pretty evenly matched and it really depends on who's flying both aircraft because you need a lot of time to rate your way around the circle and the eagle has more gas. But the Eagle can beat the viper in a one circle situation and a good pilot will generally try that first before the fight devolves into two circle on the deck. So the real danger is the eagle has several ways to get you, the viper is a one trick pony at the merge.

[buceador]

23 hours ago, cptmrcalm said:

but they have matched the pace to the music for sure!

Thanks! (The 'they' in this case is me! )

[buceador]

On 1/30/2025 at 10:14 AM, cptmrcalm said:

My mind thinks the F15C would be the hardest for the F16.

I just flew this, AI set to ACE...

[d0ppler]

In BVR 1vs1, the fastest plane that can go highest with the AIM-120C is the most dangerous. That's maybe the F-15C?

[cptmrcalm]

I reckon so. I am going to do that one next I think.. if not next, soon.

 

Did the F22 recently. Hard work -but finished now:

 

 

 

 

10 hours ago, buceador said:

Thanks! (The 'they' in this case is me! )

haha.. nice! well done! good stuff.

[Aquorys]

In DCS:

Have not tried in a while, so this is probably about 2 years ago, and it might have changed, but I'm gonna say an AI-controlled MiG-15, because its flight model and performance were very unrealistic. It easily outmaneuvers the F-16 without losing energy. Your best move against an AI-controlled MiG-15 is to go supersonic, then fly some 40 miles or so in a straight line, then turn around as fast as possible and shoot it with a couple AMRAAMs.

Other than that, AI opponents, in ACM, probably the F-18 and the MiG-29. In BVR, the JF-17, F-15C, Su-30/J-11.

Haven't tried any mods, so this is Vanilla DCS (Beta).

In real life:

BVR, if you run into a Eurofighter, Rafale, Gripen, F-22, J-20, Su-57, you're dead. I guess against an F-15C probably too.

ACM, same, except the F-15C, and maybe except the J-20 and F-35, not sure about their ACM capabilities, especially the F-35 Navy versions (B/C), which are limited to 7.5G - you might have a realistic chance.

 

Edited February 15 by Aquorys

[Dragon1-1]

8 hours ago, Aquorys said:

BVR, if you run into a Eurofighter, Rafale, Gripen, F-22, J-20, Su-57, you're dead. I guess against an F-15C probably too.

ACM, same, except the F-15C, and maybe except the J-20 and F-35, not sure about their ACM capabilities, especially the F-35 Navy versions (B/C), which are limited to 7.5G - you might have a realistic chance.

Definitely not true against F-15, and the Viper pilots fought Rafales and Gripens in exercises, as well. I don't know what their record is, but we'd hear about it by now if they never won. The new jets are good, but not unbeatable, especially if Meteor is not available. 5th gen, true due to stealth being a gamebreaker in BVR. ACM is about pilot skill and endurance more than specific airframe capabilities, fighting a 5th gen fighter with TVC would be iffy in a Viper, but you have a fighting chance against anything less, and guns only you can throw down the 5th gens as well. The modern Viper is not quite the hotrod the older versions are, but it's still quite a beast. 

In DCS, anything that can pull high alpha presents a challenge for the Viper in a dogfight, so Hornet, M2K, Su-27, Su-33 and the MiG-29. Viper hates being slow, and they don't mind, so they'll try to get you slow and then stand on their tails and make you overshoot. In the BVR, the Tomcat can be dangerous due to Phoenix having a range advantage on AIM-120, and the F-15C due to being able to go fast and carry a lot of AMRAAMs.

[Aquorys]

I will elaborate a bit on why I said what I said:

6 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Definitely not true against F-15

I am not sure whether you are referring to BVR or ACM here. BVR the F-15C has a better radar, more missiles, better high-altitude performance and more fuel, so it can play cat & mouse with an F-16 all day. ACM, the F-16 should be more maneuverable and easier to control, although the advantage could be rather marginal.

6 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

 the Viper pilots fought Rafales and Gripens in exercises, as well. I don't know what their record is, but we'd hear about it by now if they never won

There is no such thing as "never". There are records of F-18 pilots winning against F-22s in exercises. The question is about how likely that outcome is. Another important factor is what the rules of engagement are in an exercise. If you lose 19 out of 20 times, I would say, there is a clear winner in that contest.

BVR, even the non-stealthy Eurofighter/Rafale/Gripen have a smaller radar cross section than the F-16, much better high-speed/high-altitude performance, significantly better radar, sensors and fire control systems (if supports are available, such as AWACS/AEW&C, warships or a wingman's sensors, that includes, for example, the ability to launch at datalink targets, and the ability to launch "over-the-shoulder"). The chance that an F-16 would be able to launch first at any of these aircraft, or would be able to keep a tactical advantage, is rather slim, because of the limitations of the F-16's radar and fire control system compared to systems used in these other aircraft.

6 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

ACM is about pilot skill and endurance more than specific airframe capabilities

There is not too much that pilot skill can do for you when e.g. an accelerating Eurofighter at a 100kt lower speed can lead-pursuit an F-16 that is losing energy. The Rafale has a bit less thrust, and the Gripen is a lighter single-engine aircraft like the F-16, so any weapon loadout has a larger impact on performance than on the Eurofighter/Rafale, but the Gripen is still more maneuverable than the F-16.

 

[Dragon1-1]

41 minutes ago, Aquorys said:

There is not too much that pilot skill can do for you when e.g. an accelerating Eurofighter at a 100kt lower speed can lead-pursuit an F-16 that is losing energy. 

There's plenty skill can do for you before that happens, though. Seriously, those fights happened, and it's not "19 out of 20 times". Modern Vipers like Block 70 can do a lot of things those newer aircraft can do, I think this includes launching at datalink targets. You can cite the numbers all day, but there's only on that matters, and that's the one on the scoreboard. So far, the only ones that can totally dominate in this scenario are 5th gen fighters, and their record isn't spotless, either. A well flown Viper is a challenging opponent, and has options even against the more advanced fighters.

Vipers have killed F-15s in BVR, Eaglejet has an advantage, but the Viper can try to push through to the merge, which is possible to counter, but far from easy. As for ACM, well, "two turns in this fight, and I've got the Eaglejet in my sights". Lt. Col. Dick Jonas, recalling his experience in the F-16A fighting F-15s of the time. So yeah, marginal.

[Aquorys]

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Seriously, those fights happened, and it's not "19 out of 20 times".

F-16s have never fought any fighters of the Eurofighter/Rafale/Gripen trio. They have merely participated in exercises, and those exercises are typically highly regulated, often asymmetrically, because the purpose of an exercise is training and not a one-sided turkey shoot.

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Modern Vipers like Block 70 can do a lot of things those newer aircraft can do, I think this includes launching at datalink targets

Can it do Mach 1.2 at 45k ft on dry thrust?

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

As for ACM, well, "two turns in this fight, and I've got the Eaglejet in my sights". Lt. Col. Dick Jonas, recalling his experience in the F-16A fighting F-15s of the time. So yeah, marginal.

Well, reproduce that with a 4 AMRAAM + 2 Sidewinders loadout F-16 against a 6 Meteors + 2 ASRAAMs loadout Eurofighter/Rafale, all participants 150nm away from their home base, and if you get to go home before running out of fuel, ideally also having shot down the opponent first, I'll say you have a point. If you are just talking about an exercise with a clean/guns-only Viper doing exercise drills against an F-15 in the 1970s over their own airfield, then maybe not so much.

[Dragon1-1]

34 minutes ago, Aquorys said:

F-16s have never fought any fighters of the Eurofighter/Rafale/Gripen trio. They have merely participated in exercises, and those exercises are typically highly regulated, often asymmetrically, because the purpose of an exercise is training and not a one-sided turkey shoot.

Have you ever played a Red Flag campaign? Or perhaps Reflected Zone 5? Check out the reading material for them (which includes background on the real thing), those exercises are designed to be as close to reality as possible, that's the very point of them. Also check out Bio's videos about Top Gun, though being vintage USN, it was F-15 vs. F-16 and F-5. Yes, some engagements will be regulated, starting from a level merge, in order to practice certain forms of ACM. Others will be a full fighter mission, particularly during Red Flag. It's far from a turkey shoot either way.

You might have missed the fact the Viper is a common aggressor aircraft in the US squadrons. Those squadrons pretty much embody "train how you fight" philosophy, and are meant to provide a realistic, challenging threat presentation during exercises. They're also really good at their job. Food for thought: F-15 sometimes lost to aggressor F-5s. Both during predetermined ACM, and during realistic intercepts.

34 minutes ago, Aquorys said:

Well, reproduce that with a 4 AMRAAM + 2 Sidewinders loadout F-16 against a 6 Meteors + 2 ASRAAMs loadout Eurofighter/Rafale, all participants 150nm away from their home base, and if you get to go home before running out of fuel, ideally also having shot down the opponent first, I'll say you have a point.

Just wait till they release the Eurofighter and I'll make you eat your words.  In fact, I expect there'll be GS videos showcasing a few engagements. No doubt the Eurofighter will be a difficult opponent, but hardly an impossible one.

As for the F-15, Col. Pete Bonanni (you might have heard of him) cited an trying to BFM an F-16 in an F-15 as a prime example of a stupid thing to do. Now, he was also a Viper jock, but overall in the Viper folklore, whooping F-15s in the tailpipe is often boasted about. I'm quite sure they wouldn't be boasting of it if they didn't actually manage to do it once in a while. Guns, Sidewinders, you name it. If Dos Gringos songs are to be believed, the tradition continued into the AMRAAM era (then again, F-16 jocks there too, make of that what you will).

Edited February 15 by Dragon1-1

[Aquorys]

On 2/16/2025 at 12:14 AM, Dragon1-1 said:

Red Flag [...] those exercises are designed to be as close to reality as possible, that's the very point of them.

Those are complex, large tactical exercises with lots of aircraft and different missions. They are hardly useful as a comparison of the performance of two aircraft that are both part of the mission, rather, the performance of the flight or package, the training level of the air force that flies them, etc. - too many factors involved.

On 2/16/2025 at 12:14 AM, Dragon1-1 said:

Food for thought: F-15 sometimes lost to aggressor F-5s. Both during predetermined ACM, and during realistic intercepts.

Yes, and usually with WIC instructors in the F-5 and with students in the F-15. That does not mean that the F-5 is an aircraft that is competitive against the F-15. The F-15 will probably win 95% of the time against the F-5, just as the Eurofighter/Rafale/Gripen will against the F-16.

On 2/16/2025 at 12:14 AM, Dragon1-1 said:

You might have missed the fact the Viper is a common aggressor aircraft in the US squadrons.

Hardly, I even commonly fly the livery of the 64th at Nellis in DCS. If you see a "Shark" colored one with tail number 977 online, it's probably me.

On 2/16/2025 at 12:14 AM, Dragon1-1 said:

Just wait till they release the Eurofighter and I'll make you eat your words.

DCS is a fun game, but I doubt that what happens in-game would be realistic enough to make predictions about what would happen in real life. Many details are way too inaccurate or simplified for that, especially in newly released modules. You might remember how many times the flight model of the F-16, the performance and guidance characteristics of various missiles, or even just the general drag model were changed in past.

On 2/16/2025 at 12:14 AM, Dragon1-1 said:

In fact, I expect there'll be GS videos showcasing a few engagements. No doubt the Eurofighter will be a difficult opponent, but hardly an impossible one.

If by "GS" you mean "Growling Sidewinder" videos, then those will be about as useful as watching another Hollywood movie or flying around in Ace Combat 7.

 

[Dragon1-1]

6 hours ago, Aquorys said:

Yes, and usually with WIC instructors in the F-5 and with students in the F-15.

Yeah, "students" with hundreds of flight hours already under their belt. Really, just check out Bio's recollections of how real TOPGUN training usually went. I can't point you to a single source about USAF, but Bio has great stories on how things were in USN. The Tomcat is a superior aircraft to the F-5, so by your logic, it should always win. Well, already elite USN pilots routinely got their backsides whooped by TOPGUN instructors flying F-5s. The trainees would indeed start winning eventually, as they learned and applied the lessons from TOPGUN, as well as from the previous experiences. 

My point is, skill matters more than the aircraft. In that case, it certainly did. 

6 hours ago, Aquorys said:

The F-15 will probably win 95% of the time against the F-5, just as the Eurofighter/Rafale/Gripen will against the F-16.

No it won't, unless the F-15 driver flies a perfect game 95% of the time. Which most of them won't, either in DCS or IRL. No two pilots are perfectly equal, and in the end, it always comes down to who makes the fewer mistakes. The F-15 can afford to make more mistakes, or bigger mistakes than the F-5, so it's undoubtedly more likely to win, but there's always room for pilot error in a dogfight, including ones that will put the F-15 right in the F-5's sights.

6 hours ago, Aquorys said:

If by "GS" you mean "Growling Sidewinder" videos, then those will be about as useful as watching another Hollywood movie or flying around in Ace Combat 7.

They're a good place to start, though. They showcase concepts than anything else, but learning concepts is good, because you can then apply them in an actual competitive environment. That's what flying a fighter is all about. Learning and adapting to threats. Seeing what worked for GS can give you a leg up in figuring out what works for you. From there, you can figure what kind of mistakes are the most important to avoid, and what kind of mistakes you can potentially goad him into making. In particular, those videos are very instructive on how both of those look from the cockpit, which I found very helpful.

6 hours ago, Aquorys said:

You might remember how many times the flight model of the F-16, the performance and guidance characteristics of various missiles, or even just the general drag model were changed in past.

Oh, you mean those edge of envelope tweaks that happen from time to time? Exact performance specifics are not where those fights are won. Tactics are. As long as the essential relationships between aircraft performance remains correct, the results will be more or less correct. Would you fly the real Eurofighter exactly like you would a DCS module? Probably not. Could you learn what works with DCS version and then adjust for differences and apply it to the real jet? Probably yes (at least if you're any good as a pilot).

You seem to be under impression that there's some "modern jet secret sauce" that will magically let newer technology completely dominate older one. There's no such thing IRL. Rafale, Gripen and Eurofighter will not, and do not, beat the Vipers 95% of the time. They have an advantage, but in a dogfight, a single mistake can throw all that advantage away, if it's big enough. Eurofighter is not an automatic "I win" button IRL, it won't be so in DCS.

6 hours ago, Aquorys said:

They are hardly useful as a comparison of the performance of two aircraft that are both part of the mission, rather, the performance of the flight or package, the training level of the air force that flies them, etc. - too many factors involved.

So, constrained 1 vs. 1 gun/heater fights don't count, because they're too scripted, full package ops during Red Flag don't count because they're too realistic? Sounds like No True Scotsman fallacy to me. As a reminder, Vipers have trounced the newer jets in both. A Rafale driver even mentioned the Viper as the most challenging opponent he's faced. So far, only fights against the F-35 and the F-22 had been declared to be as one-sided as you'd like them to be.

[irq11]

7 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

A Rafale driver even mentioned the Viper as the most challenging opponent he's faced.

yes, it's a french pilot, interesting interview here :
https://hushkit.net/2019/11/11/flying-fighting-the-dassault-rafale-interview-with-a-rafale-combat-veteran/ and check section "…which was the most challenging? "

[Aquorys]

10 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

They have an advantage, but in a dogfight, a single mistake can throw all that advantage away, if it's big enough. Eurofighter is not an automatic "I win" button IRL, it won't be so in DCS.

It seems that you are still misunderstanding what I said. The initial question was "what fighter jet gives the F-16 the most trouble", not "can a very elite pilot in an F-5 beat an F-22 flown by a fighter pilot trainee in a simulated dogfight over the home base".

Therefore, my interpretation of the question was something like a scenario where two aircraft of each side, of roughly the same generation, enter the same airspace, without any other supports, with equally and highly qualified pilots, so that a lack of pilot skill is not a factor, with the intention to sweep that airspace, without any restricting rules of engagement.

My conclusion was, that the F-22, F-35, Eurofighter, Rafale, Gripen, J-20 and Su-57 are all significantly superior to the F-16, and therefore, will most likely win most engagements.

For the F-22, F-35, Su-57 and J-20, it is pretty obvious why, because the F-16s probably can't friggin' see them before their RWS goes "M" and the Viper pilot goes "oh sh*t" and hopefully is lucky enough to turn around and escape.

For the Eurofighter/Rafale/Gripen, which are not 5th generation stealth aircraft, it is somewhat less obvious, but the odds are still pretty clear. All of them have a radar cross section that is a fraction of that of the F-16. All of them have a way more capable radar than the F-16. All of them are more maneuverable than the F-16. At least the Eurofighter and the Rafale have significantly better high-altitude/high-speed performance than the F-16, especially considering fuel consumption. Those former two also have significantly better performance with the same combat loadout as the F-16, because they are bigger, heavier aircraft with stronger engines in the first place, so adding weight has less of an impact percentage-wise on their thrust/weight ratio than it does for the F-16.
As for skill, what would you suggest could be done with pilot skill when you are getting shot at, but your radar can not provide a firing solution for a counter-attack?

As a consequence, there will probably not be a dogfight, because you're probably not going to get that close.

But okay, let's say all the aircraft just met around the corner of some huge mountain, so we really want to know about dogfight performance rather than BVR performance. Each of the Eurofighter/Rafale/Gripen trio has significantly better maneuverability than the F-16, especially at low speed. All of them have either the same or better dogfight missiles. All of them have a radar with superior off-boresight ability. The Eurofighter and Rafale have an IRST sensor. The Eurofighter also has significantly more power.

 

A car analogy would be: I am saying, the 1995 Ford Escort RS Cosworth was a pretty fast car with ~220 hp at ~1275 kg, but a 2015 BMW M4 with ~430 hp at 1580 kg will win a race on the Nurburg ring against the Escort RS most of the time, especially when both are carrying 4 passengers, provided that the drivers of both cars have comparable skill, because of the significant performance difference between those two cars. You on the other hand are saying, no, the Escort RS would still win often, because even skilled drivers will often make small mistakes, so the outcome of such a race is not really predictable in most cases.