can not reproduce Pilot always die when F/A-18C is hit by (any) missile - version 2.9.13.6818

[ricnunes]

In the sequence of this topic which is now closed:

While opening DCS today, I noticed that there was an update today - DCS 2.9.13.6818 - and I was pleasantly surprised to learn that this update was supposed to fix this problem as it's stated in the changelog:

• Fixed: Damage model - Pilot cannot survive any explosive hit.

And this fix not only applies to the F/A-18 but also to the F-16 and F-5E. Actually and since I own FC4, I can confirm that this problem also affects the FC F-5E.
But and unfortunately after updating DCS and then making some extensive tests with the F/A-18, I didn't notice any changes/improvements at all regarding the pilot survivability when being hit by missiles. It's exactly the same as it was before the update!
I didn't have the opportunity to test the FC F-5E and I don't have the F-16.

Edited February 19 by ricnunes

[Hulkbust44]

How were you testing this?

Sent from my moto g stylus 5G (2022) using Tapatalk

[BIGNEWY]

10 hours ago, ricnunes said:

In the sequence of this topic which is now closed:

While opening DCS today, I noticed that there was an update today - DCS 2.9.13.6818 - and I was pleasantly surprised to learn that this update was supposed to fix this problem as it's stated in the changelog:

• Fixed: Damage model - Pilot cannot survive any explosive hit.

And this fix not only applies to the F/A-18 but also to the F-16 and F-5E. Actually and since I own FC4, I can confirm that this problem also affects the FC F-5E.
But and unfortunately after updating DCS and then making some extensive tests with the F/A-18, I didn't notice any changes/improvements at all regarding the pilot survivability when being hit by missiles. It's exactly the same as it was before the update!
I didn't have the opportunity to test the FC F-5E and I don't have the F-16.

Hi, 

it is fixed, the team adjusted the values as mentioned in the change log. 

If you have evidence something is wrong please present it, however the values we have now are correct. 

thank you 

[Lord Vader]

10 hours ago, ricnunes said:

And this fix not only applies to the F/A-18 but also to the F-16 and F-5E. Actually and since I own FC4, I can confirm that this problem also affects the FC F-5E.
But and unfortunately after updating DCS and then making some extensive tests with the F/A-18, I didn't notice any changes/improvements at all regarding the pilot survivability when being hit by missiles. It's exactly the same as it was before the update!
I didn't have the opportunity to test the FC F-5E and I don't have the F-16.

This particular fix was coincidental to your original report on the other thread. It was mainly related to damage detection boundaries, not really about the pilot's damage resistance. 

Like I said, when you reported your original thread we took it seriously and conducted several tests with the F/A-18C being hit in the front, rear and side by several AA and GA missiles. This included different people in MP and SP tests. Pilot survivability even before this fix was considered acceptable with several ejections performed. For this particular fix, we again conducted yet another test and, of course, the survivability is now only slightly increased.

We are sorry you are observing your issue. We do believe we addressed this with the necessary attention but we cannot reproduce it on our side. 

[OUO]

In the current version, I feel that the pilot’s survival rate is higher. I have ejected many times after being hit.

[d0ppler]

It's stated in the current patch notes that this is fixed for both the Hornet, the Viper and the F-5

[ricnunes]

13 hours ago, Lord Vader said:

This particular fix was coincidental to your original report on the other thread. It was mainly related to damage detection boundaries, not really about the pilot's damage resistance. 

Like I said, when you reported your original thread we took it seriously and conducted several tests with the F/A-18C being hit in the front, rear and side by several AA and GA missiles. This included different people in MP and SP tests. Pilot survivability even before this fix was considered acceptable with several ejections performed. For this particular fix, we again conducted yet another test and, of course, the survivability is now only slightly increased.

We are sorry you are observing your issue. We do believe we addressed this with the necessary attention but we cannot reproduce it on our side. 

Sorry but that cannot be true.
Did you run the scenarios that I shared in my original post? Because I did and after patching the game the results are exactly the same:

- 100% of the times when the F/A-18 gets hit from behind by a AA-11, the (F/A-18) pilot dies!
- 0% (ZERO) of the times when the Mig-29 gets hit from behind by a AA-11, the pilot dies or more precisely the (Mig-29) pilot ALWAYS SURVIVES!

Honestly I don't know how you cannot see or replicate this, I really don't since it's so obvious!

Edited February 20 by ricnunes

[ricnunes]

5 hours ago, OUO said:

In the current version, I feel that the pilot’s survival rate is higher. I have ejected many times after being hit.

Hit by what? It makes all the diference.

- If I get hit by a gun then yes, I can survive most of the times and eject (with the F/A-18)
- If I get hit by a very weak missile like the AA-8 (or perhaps MANPADS), sometimes I can survive and eject (with the F/A-18). But only sometimes!
- If I get hit by a relatively weak missile but more powerful than the ones above like the AA-11 up to something quite more powerful like the AA-10 then I can NEVER survive and eject (with the F/A-18).

[OUO]

6小时前，ricnunes说：

Hit by what? It makes all the diference.

- If I get hit by a gun then yes, I can survive most of the times and eject (with the F/A-18)
- If I get hit by a very weak missile like the AA-8 (or perhaps MANPADS), sometimes I can survive and eject (with the F/A-18). But only sometimes!
- If I get hit by a relatively weak missile but more powerful than the ones above like the AA-11 up to something quite more powerful like the AA-10 then I can NEVER survive and eject (with the F/A-18).

AIM120C,hit from behind

[BIGNEWY]

please ensure this thread stays on topic. 

If you have any actual evidence in a track that there is a problem with the adjusted values please attach them so we can review them. 

In our testing it is working as intended. 

thank you 

[ricnunes]

7 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

please ensure this thread stays on topic. 

If you have any actual evidence in a track that there is a problem with the adjusted values please attach them so we can review them. 

In our testing it is working as intended. 

thank you 

But I have already provided you with evidence!

I built two very, very simple scenarios which I hosted in the original thread but I'll host it here again in this post (just in case). Just download both files/missions, place it in your DCS install and play each of them an X number of times. NOTE: All you need is to keep flying the aircraft straight (don't turn, don't use countermeasures, don't accelerate too much, etc...)! This will ensure that you always get hit from behind (and therefore as farthest as possible from the cockpit position) by the enemy Mig-29 (which is armed with 2 x AA-11s) behind you! 
Both scenarios are equal with the sole diference that in one the player flies the F/A-18 and in the other flies the Mig-29.

Honestly, I don't know why haven't you tried these scenarios yet? With them I (and anyone) can replicate 100% of the times the behavior that I'm reporting here (while flying with the F/A-18 you always die but while flying the Mig-29 you always survive!).     

Missile_Test_Mig29_FA18.miz Missile_Test_Mig29_Mig29.miz

Edited February 21 by ricnunes

[BIGNEWY]

44 minutes ago, ricnunes said:

But I have already provided you with evidence!

I built two very, very simple scenarios which I hosted in the original thread but I'll host it here again in this post (just in case). Just download both files/missions, place it in your DCS install and play each of them an X number of times. NOTE: All you need is to keep flying the aircraft straight (don't turn, don't use countermeasures, don't accelerate too much, etc...)! This will ensure that you always get hit from behind (and therefore as farthest as possible from the cockpit position) by the enemy Mig-29 (which is armed with 2 x AA-11s) behind you! 
Both scenarios are equal with the sole diference that in one the player flies the F/A-18 and in the other flies the Mig-29.

Honestly, I don't know why haven't you tried these scenarios yet? With them I (and anyone) can replicate 100% of the times the behavior that I'm reporting here (while flying with the F/A-18 you always die but while flying the Mig-29 you always survive!).     

Missile_Test_Mig29_FA18.miz 9.02 kB · 2 downloads Missile_Test_Mig29_Mig29.miz 7.74 kB · 1 download

Hi ricnunes,

We have tested and they are correct. 

If you think that it is still incorrect a track replay would be better and not the miz. Maybe we can see something strange going on then. Can I ask you to attach your dcs log also, just want to ensure there is nothing odd there or modifications conflicting. 

thank you 

[ricnunes]

On 2/21/2025 at 4:48 PM, BIGNEWY said:

Hi ricnunes,

We have tested and they are correct. 

If you think that it is still incorrect a track replay would be better and not the miz. Maybe we can see something strange going on then. Can I ask you to attach your dcs log also, just want to ensure there is nothing odd there or modifications conflicting. 

thank you 

What do you mean with being "correct"?!
Are you saying that when you fly with the F/A-18 in the scenarios that I hosted that you die 100% of the times?
Are you saying that when you fly with the Mig-29 in the scenarios that I hosted that you survive 100% of the times?
Because that is what's happening to me, 100% of the times!

If your answer is Yes to both questions, how can this be "correct"?!

 

Anyway, I'll try to send you track replays in a later/next post as soon as I can.

 

Edited February 24 by ricnunes

[ricnunes]

In the meanwhile, I was able to do some new tests sooner than I expected - which without surprise had the exact same results - and as requested, I'll send here the tracks and logs.

I send here one track and the respective log one the F/A-18 test where the pilot always DIES upon being hit by a AA-11 from behind.
And I also send here one track and the respective log one the Mig-29 test where the pilot always SURVIVES upon being hit by a AA-11 from behind (and manages to eject).

I hope this helps and that this is what you requested.

F18_pilot_Always_Dies_when_hit_even_from_behind.trk F18_pilot_Always_Dies_when_hit_even_from_behind.log Mig29_pilot_Always_Survives_when_hit_even_from_behind.trk Mig29_pilot_Always_Survives_when_hit_even_from_behind.log

[BIGNEWY]

Hi ricnunes, 

I am sorry but we have tested many times and the pilot does survive in many engagements. We are not seeing any issue after the recent changes. 
 

[ricnunes]

I guess it's now my turn to say "sorry".

Sorry but that scenario you're playing is not mine or at least it's a modification of my scenario and/or its conditions!
1- For instance the F/A-18 in my scenario is Ukrainian (nation and paint) and in your case is US. Not that this by itself matters by any way but it shows that's not my scenario (or if it was then it was edited/tampered with). By the way, I also edited the scenario by having a US F/A-18 (instead of Ukrainian F/A-18) but and as expected the results were exactly the same as I always had (pilot always dies after being hit by enemy TRAILING missile) providing that everything else continued the same.
2- Another indication is that your F/A-18 is basically going away from Batumi. In my scenario and the condition that I urged you to replicate with the F/A-18 (as well as with the Mig-29), the plane is going directly towards Batumi! So either you performed evasive maneuvers in order try to avoid the enemy missile or the scenario was edited/tampered with for example planes starting from different positions and/or "god knows" what other type of editing/changes were made?

Anyway, this clearly shows that there were considerable changes of my testing conditions. And I really wonder why you seem to "refuse" to play the scenario the exact same way with the exact same conditions that I reported?! Honestly, this is frustrating because this is not a matter of happening to me or reproducing "sometimes". It actually happens to me ALL THE TIMES, with no exception! It's not even "only" 90% of the times that I get killed, it's 100% of all times, as you can see in the track and log that I sent you in my last post!

And don't get me wrong but I'm starting to feel like that this is another "AMRAAM issue" which for some odd reasons took you like 10 years to acknowledge plus something like 5 years more to actually improved it!        

Edited February 25 by ricnunes

[ruxtmp]

I still die 100% of the time from any missile hit after the update. I have about 14 instances since the last update where I've been hit by a missile, mostly aa-8s and aa-11s and was killed each time. While not a huge sample set I dont see any difference than before and all shots were from the rear quarter.

[BIGNEWY]

17 hours ago, ricnunes said:

I guess it's now my turn to say "sorry".

Sorry but that scenario you're playing is not mine or at least it's a modification of my scenario and/or its conditions!
1- For instance the F/A-18 in my scenario is Ukrainian (nation and paint) and in your case is US. Not that this by itself matters by any way but it shows that's not my scenario (or if it was then it was edited/tampered with). By the way, I also edited the scenario by having a US F/A-18 (instead of Ukrainian F/A-18) but and as expected the results were exactly the same as I always had (pilot always dies after being hit by enemy TRAILING missile) providing that everything else continued the same.
2- Another indication is that your F/A-18 is basically going away from Batumi. In my scenario and the condition that I urged you to replicate with the F/A-18 (as well as with the Mig-29), the plane is going directly towards Batumi! So either you performed evasive maneuvers in order try to avoid the enemy missile or the scenario was edited/tampered with for example planes starting from different positions and/or "god knows" what other type of editing/changes were made?

Anyway, this clearly shows that there were considerable changes of my testing conditions. And I really wonder why you seem to "refuse" to play the scenario the exact same way with the exact same conditions that I reported?! Honestly, this is frustrating because this is not a matter of happening to me or reproducing "sometimes". It actually happens to me ALL THE TIMES, with no exception! It's not even "only" 90% of the times that I get killed, it's 100% of all times, as you can see in the track and log that I sent you in my last post!

And don't get me wrong but I'm starting to feel like that this is another "AMRAAM issue" which for some odd reasons took you like 10 years to acknowledge plus something like 5 years more to actually improved it!        

Hi, 

if you want to continue adding tracks please do, we will check them, but in our tests we are not seeing the issue. 

You talk about "your scenario", we've ran your track and indeed you die in it.
But it doesn't need to be "your scenario" if there was a general issue with the DCS: F/A-18C damage model. If that was the case, it should be reproduceable every time in any track or miz. 
That's not the case as we mentioned before. This is not a general problem if we tested the F/A-18 getting hit by multiple different types of missiles (like you say you did) and the pilot survived very often.

As for the AMRAAM issues you bring up, we have done lots of work on missiles over the years, bringing it up here because you are frustrated doesn't help this issue. So please stay on topic if you want to continue.

thank you 

[Harley]

The guy is probably just trying to notice a difference, and feels that he's being brushed off.

That said, we know you all do a lot of work with these systems and all. I fly the bug exclusively, and I can confirm that it seems no changes have been observed. Perhaps it's my technique, and maybe other variables, or maybe the sheet metal of the hornet is just really thin, and missiles kill it easy.

The only frustrating part is usually that it takes a while to set everything up, and getting killed by an AIM-9 seems inappropriate, and frequent. Maybe it is more genuine now, but no less frustrating.

I get both sides, and I still want the Development team to know I appreciate your work, even if we don't always see it!

[ricnunes]

On 2/26/2025 at 12:11 PM, BIGNEWY said:

Hi, 

if you want to continue adding tracks please do, we will check them, but in our tests we are not seeing the issue. 

You talk about "your scenario", we've ran your track and indeed you die in it.
But it doesn't need to be "your scenario" if there was a general issue with the DCS: F/A-18C damage model. If that was the case, it should be reproduceable every time in any track or miz. 
That's not the case as we mentioned before. This is not a general problem if we tested the F/A-18 getting hit by multiple different types of missiles (like you say you did) and the pilot survived very often.

As for the AMRAAM issues you bring up, we have done lots of work on missiles over the years, bringing it up here because you are frustrated doesn't help this issue. So please stay on topic if you want to continue.

thank you 

I could continue to add tracks but they would be exactly the same and like I said, this is something that happens me 100% of the times (it's not even 99%)!

If you change the parameters of my tests then it's possible that some end results may present themselves differently but even then I'm astonished how you can claim that you don't see any different survival rate with the F/A-18 compared with other aircraft like for example the Mig-29. This is clearly not the case as other users also reported the same here.
Anyway, I just showed you examples that CLEALY proves my post:
- AA-11 hitting a F/A-18 from behind -> Pilot always dies!
- AA-11 hitting a Mig-29 from behind -> Pilot always survives!

This is NOT "normal behaviour" no matter what you may say!
I don't know what else I must do because I proved this here and did it with a 100% certainty.

Edited March 4 by ricnunes

[ricnunes]

Ok, one more attempt:

• I recorded tracks of 10 attempts in a row with the F/A-18, always being hit from behind by a AA-11 and again and without surprise the pilot always died! 
• I recorded tracks of 10 attempts in a row with the Mig-29, always being hit from behind by a AA-11 and again and without surprise the pilot always survived! 

I attach here in this post the 10 tracks from each aircraft (20 in total) together with the respective log files, compacted in two (2) .zip files.

And I hope that this finally shows and proves without any possible doubt what I've been saying here even because it took me quite some time to perform these tests and put the files together!

And again, this not a normal or expected behaviour! Not even by a long shot!   

F18_pilot_Always_Dies_when_hit_even_from_behind_10_tries.zip Mig29_pilot_Always_Survives_when_hit_even_from_behind_10_tries.zip

[Smashy]

@ricnunes, I'm seeing the same thing, at least with AI controlled Hornets.  I just created a simple mission with an AI MiG-29 armed with AA-11s setup at the 6 o'clock of an AI Hornet that is flying straight and level.  After running it 10 times, the Hornet pilot is killed all 10 times.  I substituted a Viper in for the Hornet and the Viper pilot survived 5 of 10 rear-aspect AA-11 impacts. So something does still seem off, despite the recent Hornet pilot survivability adjustments.

@BIGNEWY I'm attaching my simple mission in case you're interested.

Nevada AI Hornet survivability.miz

[ricnunes]

@Smashy, I agree!
I also noticed what your described in missions such as the "8 vs 8 BVR" quick engagement scenario that comes with DCS F/A-18. Often when I open the F10 map, I see that for each shot down (AI) Mig-29 or Su-27 there's often a corresponding ejecting pilot but when it comes to each AI F/A-18 shot down there's rarely or almost never an ejecting pilot.
And of course, when I'm (the player) shot down by an enemy missile, I always die has well in that same scenario!

Thanks for your feedback!  

[ruxtmp]

Still 100% death with any missile hit. Gun hits are the only ones that are survivable to be able to eject even after the latest patch.

[ricnunes]

After an hiatus from playing DCS and therefore after a few new updates, the issue that I reported here still persists!
Moreover, I see that at least another user reports the same.

Are you (from ED) going to continue to ignore this issue?
Do you continue to say that there isn't any diference in pilot survivability after being hit by a missile between the F/A-18 (pilot always dies!) and the Mig-29 (pilot almost always survives)?

Please, fix this issue.