reported earlier Massive pitch up on landing

[Ramses823]

Hey you guys at ED have been doing some really good work with the new maps and improving performance, but the issue with the A-10 pitching up needs to be addressed once and for all. I was coming in to land  and as I come off the overhead break and drop my landing gear the jets starts pitching down then I add a ton of trim to keep the nose up and once I get about to the overrun bam all that trim, I put in catches up and the jet starts  pitches up almost stalling. I'm close to 1,000 hours in the A-10 at this point so I've seen the issue more times than I'd like...  I would have sent a track but the file was too big besides there have been a number of reports on this.

[Ramses823]

some more info on the issue that might help is I was doing some low angle rocket runs and towards the middle of it let's say on my 10th pass the nose lost pitch and wanted to pitch down, it's as if the flight dynamics changed ever so slightly this has happened before after doing a number of passes working a conventual bombing pattern on the NTTR map but I know it's not limited to the NTTR map because its also happened on the Persian Gulf map however I just flew a mini 14 mission campaign I made on the Syria map and most missions were 3 and a half hours plus and I didn't experience the issue, today was my first day back on the NTTR map so I can't say for sure but the issue seems a little more pronounced  on the NTTR map but I'm aware that people have experienced it on other maps as well either way it's a frustrating issue to say the least.

[Scotch75]

some more info on the issue that might help is I was doing some low angle rocket runs and towards the middle of it let's say on my 10th pass the nose lost pitch and wanted to pitch down, it's as if the flight dynamics changed ever so slightly this has happened before after doing a number of passes working a conventual bombing pattern on the NTTR map but I know it's not limited to the NTTR map because its also happened on the Persian Gulf map however I just flew a mini 14 mission campaign I made on the Syria map and most missions were 3 and a half hours plus and I didn't experience the issue, today was my first day back on the NTTR map so I can't say for sure but the issue seems a little more pronounced  on the NTTR map but I'm aware that people have experienced it on other maps as well either way it's a frustrating issue to say the least.

Hhhmmm, maybe check your keybinds. I used to experience this, and then I deleted my whole input file for all of my aircraft in an attempt to fix other problems. This meant a total rebinding or all aircraft inputs. I have since flown the A-10CII several times on both Syria and Sinai maps and have not seen this issue again. The aircraft has been stable all the way to touchdown.

Cheers!


Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk

[Yurgon]

20 minutes ago, Scotch75 said:

I have since flown the A-10CII several times on both Syria and Sinai maps and have not seen this issue again.

Unlikely to be the culprit. I've personally witnessed this weird trim/CG issue maybe a dozen-ish times or so in several years of flying the A-10C regularly. Maybe 2 dozen times. This thing not happening for a while doesn't mean it's gone. Just means humans lack an intuitive understanding of statistics.

[Ramses823]

50 minutes ago, Scotch75 said:

Hhhmmm, maybe check your keybinds. I used to experience this, and then I deleted my whole input file for all of my aircraft in an attempt to fix other problems. This meant a total rebinding or all aircraft inputs. I have since flown the A-10CII several times on both Syria and Sinai maps and have not seen this issue again. The aircraft has been stable all the way to touchdown.

Cheers!


Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk
 

Honestly, I think for the causal A-10 flyer you might not ever see it but if you're like me and put in a lot of hours on the A-10 it's an issue you are likely to see, and it's a bummer after a long mission when you think you got the perfect landing lined up but instead of landing you find yourself shooting for the sky.... 

[King39]

1 hour ago, Yurgon said:

Unlikely to be the culprit. I've personally witnessed this weird trim/CG issue maybe a dozen-ish times or so in several years of flying the A-10C regularly. Maybe 2 dozen times. This thing not happening for a while doesn't mean it's gone. Just means humans lack an intuitive understanding of statistics.

Just happened to me this afternoon in testing. I actually induced it on purpose to see if this condition still exists, which it does. Occurs during the flair to land at KIAS 150-170 and exists with/without trim settings neutralized which I thought might have contributed to it and with a AOA >5 degrees (on the flair).

[Nealius]

+1. Every single flight in the A-10 for me (about 8 flights now) has experienced this pitch up behavior on the Afghanistan map. I'm about to quit playing the A-10 entirely until they fix this.

[Ramses823]

16 minutes ago, Nealius said:

+1. Every single flight in the A-10 for me (about 8 flights now) has experienced this pitch up behavior on the Afghanistan map. I'm about to quit playing the A-10 entirely until they fix this.

That really sucks.. I've been slowly building a Afghanistan campaign for myself but I haven't flown on the map I have just been placing triggers and settings up assets. This really isn't a issue to be put on the back burner it should be a priority item to be fixed.

Edited March 8 by Ramses823

[Nealius]

I've been building a large sandbox for casual play and it's been happening to me everywhere. Landing at Kandahar? Pitch up. Landing at Bagram? Pitch down while doing a TACAN arc to line up on initial 5nm out, then a pitch up as I cross the threshold. Flying around Bost doing combat ops? Random pitch down and pitch up depending on location relative the runway. Never happens on Syria at Incirlik or any of the Jordanian bases. 

Edited March 8 by Nealius

[Ramses823]

The issue definitely seems more prevent than it used to be on the NTTR map. Before I did my last syria campaign I was having issues with the pitch up before landing on NTTR but it used to be very rare but then the frequency of it seemed like it started happening more but then I did the 14 mission Syria campaign and I damn near forgot about the issue because it wasn't happening at Incirlik for any of my missions; but then I jumped on the NTTR map the other day and my first flight it pops right up. I really hate it because NTTR is my main training map where I spin up for the campaigns I make for myself. I'm not a developer or anything but in fairness to ED I think this is a challenging issue to fix because it randomly happens and building a quick mission to see if you can induce it to create a track file hasn't worked for me. It only happens after a long mission in my experience and all my missions are long lol...

[BIGNEWY]

Hey all, 

this is already reported to the team and when we have spare resources it will be checked and adjusted by the team. 

thank you 

 

[Nealius]

Stopgap that works for me: Map trim reset to an easy to reach button on your HOTAS and tap that while you're on final approach. The bug seems to affect trim, so if you reset your trim there's no trim for the bug to mess with *taps head*

Edited March 12 by Nealius

[Dondy]

Just to make sure, you mean the "Take-Off Trim Button" when you say "trim reset"?

[Nealius]

4 hours ago, Dondy said:

Just to make sure, you mean the "Take-Off Trim Button" when you say "trim reset"?

No, trim reset. Might be named "reset trim" in the controls window, I don't recall. 

[King39]

18 minutes ago, Nealius said:

No, trim reset. Might be named "reset trim" in the controls window, I don't recall. 

In the A-10C II it's "Trim:Reset" under Flight Control category which didn't make any difference to me.

[Nealius]

10 hours ago, King39 said:

which didn't make any difference to me.

Strange. On an attempted landing I had the nose swing up to 10 degrees, hit the trim reset which leveled me out, did a go around without touching trim at all, and on my second pass was able to land normally without any pitching issues.

[Yurgon]

2 hours ago, Nealius said:

Strange. On an attempted landing I had the nose swing up to 10 degrees, hit the trim reset which leveled me out, did a go around without touching trim at all, and on my second pass was able to land normally without any pitching issues.

As far as I can tell when this thing happens, at some point during a flight the aircraft will develop a notable and sudden nose down attitude. This attitude routinely gets reset just before touchdown.

If I understand correctly, you're saying this exact thing happened to you, and then after it happened, you used trim reset and were no longer affected? In that case, trim reset would do nothing, because the nose down attitude was already reset when you tried to land for the first time.

Someone suggested the issue might be a center of gravity shift rather than a trim issue, and that sounds pretty plausible to me - the controls indicator doesn't show anything off or weird when the anomaly happens. The aircraft just pitches down for no apparent reason. It's very easy to think this is caused by trim, but that may well be because we all instinctively trim against the pitch down. Then when the anomaly goes away just before touchdown, we still have all the counter-trim and the jet balloons into the sky. There's a pretty good chance trim is just a symptom, not the cause, in which case trim reset or takeoff-trim wouldn't solve the issue.

Would be great if someone could confirm this.

[Nealius]

1 hour ago, Yurgon said:

As far as I can tell when this thing happens, at some point during a flight the aircraft will develop a notable and sudden nose down attitude. This attitude routinely gets reset just before touchdown.

Perhaps? So far I've had five occasions of this happening, all on the Afghanistan map:

1. Pitch down while at around 19,000ft and 4~5nm north/northeast-ish of Bost airfield, over Lashkar Gah. Pitch up "reset" at altitude while operating elsewhere in the Lashkar area (don't recall exactly as it was a few months ago but it was somewhere on the West/South quadrant from the airfield), at which point I did not experience a pitch up on landing at Kandahar.

2. Pitch down at the same location as situation 1, but no pitch up "reset" until flaring at Kandahar 05.

3. Pitch down on departure from Bagram 21R roughly 6~8nm somewhere between runway axis and 20 degrees east of runway axis. I didn't complete that flight.

4. Pitch down on tanker rejoin at 20,000ft, 2~3nm bearing 259T from Jalalabad airfield. Pitch up "reset" while flaring at Bagram 21L

5. Pitch down 6~8nm roughly 043T from Bagram while doing a TACAN arc to 21L. Pitch up "reset" while flaring at Bagram 21L.

In missions where I avoid overflight of airfields I encounter no pitch down nor pitch up reset at any point during the flight.

Now that I've typed these out, is it just me or is there a pattern of the first pitch change usually happening north/northeast and south/southwest of airfields? 

 

Edited March 14 by Nealius

[Bertcoin]

Been flying the A-10 since the A model.  The ONLY experience I have with the OP's issue is the threshold float- which I believe is improper modeling of the WIND over the runway threshold since about 2.9.0 or so.  It never was there before, then it was every time in the last 12 months, so not sure which update did it.  It happens on the A-10, and the F-16, etc., so I don't think it's A-10 related.  It ONLY happens to me when I land into the wind (headwind).  If I land with a tailwind, it never happens.  (Many 100's of landings).  So for some reason, I get a 10 to 20 knot increase (wind shear) that can really float an empty A-10.  It's a go-around in a light and empty F-16.  A fully loaded A-10 is almost not affected, hence it correlates to the lift vs. weight and drag calculation kicking in. 

Regarding the overhead break scenario (or any other run-away trim issue).  When the A-10 drops from 300 knots to 150 knots (or accelerates in the dive) you're going to need a large trim adjustment.  I've never had it where the trim issue was not me holding the trim hat too long, or to short.  I also believe that a non-axis input like a plastic hat can not necessarily be smoothly transmitting keys or handled smoothly by the computer.  I don't usually just hold it aft like IRL which is an electric current running a smooth electric motor.  A jittery joystick hat and an overloaded computer keyboard buffer can result in overshoot in the sim as it catches up on keyboard inputs.  I have also had it where a key or control binding got interjected into my config like the first answer above.  For example, I fly in VR, so a few times all of a sudden the hand controller sticks got activated on pitch and roll, or the setting changed for the controller laser pointer to grab the stick and it would overpower my TM stick.  But absent any key bind or axis issue, just holding back pressure as I slow to AOA speed and pulling and pulsing the trim hat aft has always worked.  Trim the pressure off in real time short pulses, thumb, hand coordination. It's muscle memory now.

So IMHO, software wise, the into-the-wind-threshold-wind-shear is the only trim issue I've ever experienced and on multiple airframes over multiple computers.

[Yurgon]

33 minutes ago, Bertcoin said:

So IMHO, software wise, the into-the-wind-threshold-wind-shear is the only trim issue I've ever experienced and on multiple airframes over multiple computers.

It's simple then. You just have not experienced the issue OP was describing and talking about. If you had, you'd see how the aircraft at some point during the flight requires unexpected and heavy nose up trim inputs and how, on the next landing approach, the underlying issue goes away and all of a sudden the pilot is left with all of the nose up trim and the jet jumps up. On the next approach, headwind or not, everything is going to be back to normal and a perfectly trimmed aircraft can be landed without any issues.

I've experienced this somewhere between one and two dozen times, give or take, over several years. It's not common and for the most part happens after an hour or so-ish, so if you haven't experienced it, good on you. But I guarantee you, there is an issue with the A-10C.

[Ramses823]

Until ED gets a chance to fix the issue a work around fix is if your flying and you get a unexpected drop in pitch slow down to under 200 KIAS then drop the gear and once the gear is fully down press the takeoff trim button then bring the gear back up and that should neutralize the issue so you don't get that insane pitch up as you come in to land.

[Papa1]

I know a thread was closed on this but it’s still very frustrating and happening a lot so just a friendly reminder.

[Yurgon]

Yup, had it happen a few times recently, and some of my squad mates as well.

[EricJ]

Well good to know, as I just installed it and haven't flown it yet.

[Yurgon]

6 hours ago, EricJ said:

Well good to know, as I just installed it and haven't flown it yet.

Just so you know, this is a very rare thing. Don't let it keep you from enjoying the A-10.