waiting for resolution ED/RAZBAM Situation Info & Discussion

[Hammer1-1]

1 hour ago, some1 said:

So a serious question. Which 3rd party modules are actually protected from something like that happening again? Corsair - that thing was in development for a very long time, signed ages ago. Kiowa - Polychop has been around since the early days. Tomcat? Your guess is as good as mine. All confidential information of course, at least until another 3rd party goes belly up.

this is assuming, so take it with a grain of salt. I "assume" every module has a contractual agreement behind it rather than just the 3rd party (and Ill touch on that briefly), and if thats the case then yeah...every module contracted prior to VEAOs departure would be left out of the updated agreement, and those signed afterwards are enforced. If its the 3rd party that signed the contract and its for as long as they develop under the ED SDK, then every contract afterwards would be enforced regardless of when the module started.

 

ED never made this clear...personally I think they should, but it kind of doesnt really matter at this point.

Edited yesterday at 03:18 PM by Hammer1-1

[Nightdare]

8 hours ago, Horns said:

There was nothing left out of that, 'new third-party agreements'

Ok, we agree on that,...

 

 

...so...

 

....remind us which new party or perhaps what modules are subjective to the post-Hawk agreements

 

Because currently it's like ED is advertising they took the poison out of their babyfood, but there is still 10 years of stock to sell before the non-poisoned babyfood will finally be in the stores

[Horns]

2 hours ago, Nightdare said:

Ok, we agree on that,...

 

 

...so...

 

....remind us which new party or perhaps what modules are subjective to the post-Hawk agreements

 

Because currently it's like ED is advertising they took the poison out of their babyfood, but there is still 10 years of stock to sell before the non-poisoned babyfood will finally be in the stores

That's probably a fair analogy. Problem is I don't know which devs started their relationship with ED when so I can't give an answer to that, but it would not cover many of the third-party modules we have now, an extremely quick count leads me to a complete guesstimate of seven.

I could be totally wrong and it might be the majority released since 2018. We just don't know.

[bfr]

6 hours ago, ruxtmp said:

This issue has brought the whole 3rd party developer risk to light. Anyone that thinks a third party will just hand over code to another party if they go belly up is deceiving themselves. If you believe any of the 3rd parties agreed to this supposed new contractual agreement I have a few bridges to sell you, or to the third party if they actually agreed to it. If a business goes belly up for any reason they are not going to just give up their work for free for another business entity to continue making profit off of their base work. All these 3rd party modules and maps are completely dependent on the original developer unless sold off. Razbam modules are going to either work and die a slow death or ED will just break them all in one version upgrade and be done with the issue and we won’t be able to do anything about it. The only way to prevent this is to have ED buy the rights to a developed module using the 3rd party as a sub contractor. The problem with this is ED can barely keep up with their own work let alone any extra modules being pushed out by other developers. 

Agreements like that do exist but with extremely specific triggers for when things get handed over. For instance a company I worked for provided a piece of software for day to day operations of a large client. If we went under or unilaterally withdrew from providing our services during however many years the contract ran for then they got access to the source code  and their data for the bit of software they were using.  If we had a mere contractual dispute they didn't get it. If they just wanted a look at it then they couldn't.

And yes, you're right. I've been saying this for ages but even if they get hold of the source/IP for the modules it still requires ED to be able to allocate the time and resources to then work with, build and package it.  And if they have to pay for it then that is additional cost on top of putting people onto working on it.

[invisi-wall2]

An Open Letter to the Leadership of Eagle Dynamics and Razbam

To the decision-makers at Eagle Dynamics and Razbam,

I am writing to you today as a dedicated member of the DCS World community and a longtime fan of the F-15E Strike Eagle. I first discovered DCS World in June 2023, and since then, I have deeply impressed by the detailed, immersive world you have created. It has been a dream come true to see the F-15E Strike Eagle module being implemented, allowing enthusiasts like me to experience the awe of this aircraft.

This dream, however, is now overshadowed by the ongoing news of the dispute between your two companies and the potential end of your partnership. The possibility of losing access to the fruits of your collaboration - the AV-8B, the Mirage 2000, the Mig-19, Mig-23, the South Atlantic map, and my personal favorite, the F-15E - which I can only assume from all the passionate commentary is a significant concern for many in this community.

To the development and support staff teams at Eagle Dynamics and Razbam, I extend my sincere thanks. Eagle Dynamics, your platform provides a level of depth and realism that is unmatched, allowing everyday people to engage with flight sim'ing in military aviation in a truly meaningful way. Razbam, your work has provided me with the opportunity to lice out a long-held dream of getting as close as possible to flying the Strike Eagle, an aircraft I can only see on a screen. 

This dispute is not just a business matter, it has real consequences for a community, both professional and enthusiast, that has invested its time, money and passion into your products. I recognize that business relationships can be complex, and I am not privy to every detail. However, I ask you not to forget the community while legal proceedings continue between the parties.

I urge you both to find a path towards resolution. Please find a way to empathize with and understand each other's position to ensure this is not the end. I continue to hope on both your ability to reconcile.

Thank you for your time and the incredible experience you have given us so far.

Sincerely,

A dedicated DCS World and F-15E fan.

 

[Esac_mirmidon]

Thanks for your letter. Thats exactly what i was feeling one year ago, but sadly the time to empathize is gone.

Is over. The sooner you get it the less pain you will suffer.

[Dragon1-1]

13 hours ago, bfr said:

And yes, you're right. I've been saying this for ages but even if they get hold of the source/IP for the modules it still requires ED to be able to allocate the time and resources to then work with, build and package it.  And if they have to pay for it then that is additional cost on top of putting people onto working on it.

This would be subject to a cost-benefit analysis. So, the MiG-19 would probably share the fate of the Yak-52, kept operational, but not updated much. The Mudhen would probably be worth finishing properly, that one is what people are really concerned about. MiG-23, only if the -29 is a massive success. As for the others, no clue.

[Horns]

12 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

This would be subject to a cost-benefit analysis. So, the MiG-19 would probably share the fate of the Yak-52, kept operational, but not updated much. The Mudhen would probably be worth finishing properly, that one is what people are really concerned about. MiG-23, only if the -29 is a massive success. As for the others, no clue.

Just shooting my mouth off here: If I was ED there would be no way I would even entertain the idea of buying Razbam's MiG-23 - not because it's not an aircraft worth having in DCS, it certainly is, but because the price worth paying for the mature modules would include the value of the loss of goodwill from existing owners, that wouldn't factor in for the -23. Don't reward Ron for another half-built module, better for ED to wait and build one themselves from scratch.

[Esac_mirmidon]

Because ED has not build half baked modules for years.....

 

 

[bfr]

28 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

This would be subject to a cost-benefit analysis. So, the MiG-19 would probably share the fate of the Yak-52, kept operational, but not updated much. The Mudhen would probably be worth finishing properly, that one is what people are really concerned about. MiG-23, only if the -29 is a massive success. As for the others, no clue.

Yes, very much so. If you're going to throw money at resurrecting a module you'll want that money being thrown back at you in new sales. So a module that is niche and/or has already sold most of the units it is ever likely to is less attractive. Although if ED are picking them up then  less direct benefits (i.e. restoring customer confidence) might also be a considered worthwhile. 

[Dragon1-1]

7 minutes ago, bfr said:

Although if ED are picking them up then  less direct benefits (i.e. restoring customer confidence) might also be a considered worthwhile. 

Worth noting, there's a difference between picking them up for maintenance and actually doing something to develop them. They should maintain existing modules as a matter of course, but I'd imagine only the Mudhen would be worth actively developing. For what it's worth, the Mirage 2000 seems to be mostly complete, but the MiG-19 has many minor issues and the Harrier was in the middle of a major rework. 

17 minutes ago, Horns said:

Just shooting my mouth off here: If I was ED there would be no way I would even entertain the idea of buying Razbam's MiG-23

All depends on the asking price. A half-completed module can still save many man-hours of work, for which ED would have to pay for. If the price to buy the module is lower than the cost of labor to redo that work, then it's a deal worth making. 

[Horns]

7 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

All depends on the asking price. A half-completed module can still save many man-hours of work, for which ED would have to pay for. If the price to buy the module is lower than the cost of labor to redo that work, then it's a deal worth making. 

Agree - although we're really talking about math so my saying so is probably redundant - but you'd have to buy it without getting a chance to check out how it's been done and you'd have to take a lot on trust. How would you go about figuring out how much it would save you?

[Oban]

58 minutes ago, Esac_mirmidon said:

Because ED has not build half baked modules for years.....

 

 

And yet here you are........moaning about half baked modules that may or may not be further developed, which NOBODY forced you to buy.. 

[Dragon1-1]

36 minutes ago, Horns said:

How would you go about figuring out how much it would save you?

Presumably, you'd want a progress report of some sort, as a prerequisite of purchase. Lying in such a report would be very ill-advised and grounds for an expensive lawsuit, so if RAZBAM agreed to provide it, it should be reasonably accurate. 

[Horns]

2 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Presumably, you'd want a progress report of some sort, as a prerequisite of purchase. Lying in such a report would be very ill-advised and grounds for an expensive lawsuit, so if RAZBAM agreed to provide it, it should be reasonably accurate. 

If ED does purchase the MiG-23, let's hope it does work out that way.

[JuiceIsLoose]

@NineLine sorry for the ping, but curious on the last update to the first post. Does that include Razbams AI aircraft? Is there a possibility for those to no longer function, or are those handled separately?

[Gizmo03]

vor 45 Minuten schrieb Horns:

If ED does purchase the MiG-23, let's hope it does work out that way.

Maybe i missed something but before asking IF EagleDynamics will purchase the MiG-23 or any other RB module we should ask IF Razbam will sell them. And i'm pretty concerned about this question.

[Horns]

41 minutes ago, Gizmo03 said:

Maybe i missed something but before asking IF EagleDynamics will purchase the MiG-23 or any other RB module we should ask IF Razbam will sell them. And i'm pretty concerned about this question.

Agreed that we don't know if Razbam will sell any modules to ED, my comment was a response in an ongoing conversation where a hypothetical sale itself was being spoken of.

[Esac_mirmidon]

3 hours ago, Oban said:

And yet here you are........moaning about half baked modules that may or may not be further developed, which NOBODY forced you to buy.. 

And yet here we have ED releasing half baked modules like there is no tomorrow. I have eated enough half bakering to not buy anythng else

Edited 1 hour ago by Esac_mirmidon

[PhantomHans]

My only takeaway from this is that spending money on DCS products is a lot like gambling.

You put your money in, and if you're lucky, you don't just lose everything immediately. 

[Gizmo03]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Horns:

Agreed that we don't know if Razbam will sell any modules to ED, my comment was a response in an ongoing conversation where a hypothetical sale itself was being spoken of.

Ah, ok. That's what i've missed  

[MicroShket]

26 минут назад, PhantomHans сказал:

You put your money in, and if you're lucky, you don't just lose everything immediately. 

How many modules have you lost?

I started with Flanker 2.5, then moved on to Lock On 2, and since 2014 I’ve bought most of the DCS modules.

Well, I don’t have VEAO’s T.1A Hawk, but I do own the Mirage 2000 and the AV-8B. These two were really cheap back in the day - that’s the only reason I bought them (I’ve known Razbam since the MSFS days, and their products were very average).

When the prices skyrocketed, I decided not to buy any more Razbam modules, because looking at AV-8B, Mirage and MiG-19P... Just meh. And guess whose modules are disappearing now? If you're not sure, don’t place any bets.