Potential mistake in MiG-29A FAQ about R-27ER and R-27ET

[jeventy26]

5 minutes ago, MA_VMF said:

The Su-27 and Su-33 could not use the R-77

No kidding... At least not the version we have.  The SU-27SM can though as it has a different radar.  Doesn't the 9.12 we are getting use the N019 radar?  AFAIK that can't support R-27ER.  Not until the N019M.  I am not pretending I know everything but isn't that correct?  What's the difference?

[Dača]

30 minutes ago, jeventy26 said:

No kidding... At least not the version we have.  The SU-27SM can though as it has a different radar.  Doesn't the 9.12 we are getting use the N019 radar?  AFAIK that can't support R-27ER.  Not until the N019M.  I am not pretending I know everything but isn't that correct?  What's the difference?

There was a talk on forum that 9.12 variants received some update which people connect to E variants of R-27 missiles being able to be used on 9.12 variant. I am not sure who is right and on the internet I managed to find both statements.

Maybe it was possible, but I found out that Yugoslavia, for example, only had R-27R1. According to military manual from Yugoslav Air Force, year 1990.

[MA_VMF]

2 часа назад, jeventy26 сказал:

No kidding... At least not the version we have.  The SU-27SM can though as it has a different radar.  Doesn't the 9.12 we are getting use the N019 radar?  AFAIK that can't support R-27ER.  Not until the N019M.  I am not pretending I know everything but isn't that correct?  What's the difference?

The Su-27 uses the same radar with only some improvements. The Soviet MiG-29 could have used the R-27ER initially

[NineLine]

4 hours ago, jeventy26 said:

Then why don't we add the R-77's to the SU-27/SU-33?  Furthermore are all variants in FC3 going to be upgraded to "within the realm of possibility weapons"?  

Based on our research for the MiG-29 we are adding these, which doesn't mean they can be dropped on any other modules. 

[Dudikoff]

I think people are getting stuck on a certain version as if it was a static thing, rather than a continuous upgrade through their service. When these planes go through major overhauls, e.g. their WCS and radar processing computers get line updated and since their original stuff is obsolete, they get newer parts with updated capabilities (e.g. Ts100M processors that initially came with N019M radars instead of original Ts-100). So, 9.12A as released initially couldn't support R-27ER missiles as they weren't available yet anyway, but later on with various line upgrades it probably could with the correct upgrade package. 

[AeriaGloria]

Well, 1988/89 is pretty early for 9.12A……

[Dača]

2 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

Well, 1988/89 is pretty early for 9.12A……

9.13 entered service in 1986. Only question would be when did ER and ET enter serial production. That info is hard to find.

[draconus]

8 hours ago, Dudikoff said:

I think people are getting stuck on a certain version as if it was a static thing, rather than a continuous upgrade through their service.

Of course but for simulation devs choose one and keep within its capabilities, not every possible version and modification.

[MA_VMF]

8 часов назад, Dača сказал:

9.13 entered service in 1986. Only question would be when did ER and ET enter serial production. That info is hard to find.

1984-1985

[EasternEagle]

Something something R27EP

[Merrek]

On 6/24/2025 at 2:51 PM, jeventy26 said:

Then why don't we add the R-77's to the SU-27/SU-33?  Furthermore are all variants in FC3 going to be upgraded to "within the realm of possibility weapons"?  

There are MP servers where I've seen Su-33 packed with R-77s or PL-12, can't remember. If you want R-77 on an Su-27, you're talking about the J-11. Can carry up to 6 of them. And also PL-12 with better range. But I've seen it packed with 10 R-77s (ShadowReapers Syria 90s scenario, I think) including the furthermost pylons usually reserved for R-73 or ECM pods.

[draconus]

2 hours ago, Merrek said:

There are MP servers where I've seen Su-33 packed with R-77s or PL-12

They're using mods for this.

[jeventy26]

On 6/24/2025 at 5:54 PM, Dudikoff said:

I think people are getting stuck on a certain version as if it was a static thing, rather than a continuous upgrade through their service. When these planes go through major overhauls, e.g. their WCS and radar processing computers get line updated and since their original stuff is obsolete, they get newer parts with updated capabilities (e.g. Ts100M processors that initially came with N019M radars instead of original Ts-100). So, 9.12A as released initially couldn't support R-27ER missiles as they weren't available yet anyway, but later on with various line upgrades it probably could with the correct upgrade package. 

No.  We just want a simple answer... Not a political one.  "Where these used on our version we are getting?"     -"No, but they could have so we are adding it."  That's all I am asking for.  

[Schmidtfire]

At the end of the day, it's about offering a MiG-29 experience.

Options to use the ER, ET and even R-77(!) would be good things.

With only 1 variant and full asking price of $79.99 USD, it's important to be somewhat flexible to the audience needs.

Everyone benefits from DCS: MiG-29 Fulcrum module being a successful module. I'm not advocating going full fantasy or anything, but adding a few more "plausible" loadout options to appeal to a broader audience will sell more modules. It also give more options to create more modern "what if" scenarios.

As long as there is transparency what weapons has been added as "ED version", I can't see any downsides to it...       

[Esac_mirmidon]

Even more, the R-27ER is still a SAHR missile so is not the mother of all missiles, you still need to keep the lock, against ARH you are the underdog.

The ET is more a surprise missile attack with no warning, launching from below, nasty and dangerous with good range but force pilots to fly the hide and seek game, not Air Superiority tasking.

[Pavlin_33]

On 6/30/2025 at 2:03 PM, Esac_mirmidon said:

Even more, the R-27ER is still a SAHR missile so is not the mother of all missiles, you still need to keep the lock, against ARH you are the underdog.

The ET is more a surprise missile attack with no warning, launching from below, nasty and dangerous with good range but force pilots to fly the hide and seek game, not Air Superiority tasking.

I used to like firing the ER from 5km or so. Even though the enemy gets a warning there's nothing they can do to avoid it.

Against 120 it's not really equal, but it's far from being outclassed. 

[Logan54]

If I would be USSR Gov, I`d like to sell downgrade version of 29, that`s why Warsaw Pact got 29 with downgraded radar capabilities. But if we want to see 29 with ER/ET, isn`t the only way to create 2nd (Soviet) version with normal radar+ER/ET?

Fulcrum in DCS have the lowest radar range, so probably its a good way to separate coldwar and modern setups. This action let us not to create discussions like this in the future.

TBH we all can see ED`s work on radar ranges.

Edited July 9 by Logan54

[Weta43]

That is an interesting graph - where did you get the underlying data?

At face value, between 2.5.6 by 2.9 the net result is that where revisions have been made Blue detection ranges have ended up increasing and Red decreasing.
F-14 has been unchanged at 117
F-15C started at 65 & is now 85
F-16C started at 75 & is now 75
F-18C started at 95 & is now 100
M2000C started at 65 & is now 87

Su-27 hasn't been touched at 65
MiG-29 hasn't been touched at 42
JF-17 started at 80 & is now 58

It'll be interesting to see if the FF MiG 29 follows a similar path to the F-16 & F-18 - 'cause if it does it's going to have a detection range of about 11 for a couple of revisions.

That should make for some interesting posts

 

[okopanja]

On 7/9/2025 at 4:32 PM, Logan54 said:

If I would be USSR Gov, I`d like to sell downgrade version of 29, that`s why Warsaw Pact got 29 with downgraded radar capabilities. But if we want to see 29 with ER/ET, isn`t the only way to create 2nd (Soviet) version with normal radar+ER/ET?

Can you tell us more about non-downgraded soviet radar and exactly what got downgraded?

[Muchocracker]

13 hours ago, Weta43 said:

That is an interesting graph - where did you get the underlying data?

At face value, between 2.5.6 by 2.9 the net result is that where revisions have been made Blue detection ranges have ended up increasing and Red decreasing.
F-14 has been unchanged at 117
F-15C started at 65 & is now 85
F-16C started at 75 & is now 75
F-18C started at 95 & is now 100
M2000C started at 65 & is now 87

Su-27 hasn't been touched at 65
MiG-29 hasn't been touched at 42
JF-17 started at 80 & is now 58

It'll be interesting to see if the FF MiG 29 follows a similar path to the F-16 & F-18 - 'cause if it does it's going to have a detection range of about 11 for a couple of revisions.

That should make for some interesting posts

 

important clarification to make here is the numbers for the 18 and 16 are its 1% single dwell time probability of detection range (the 18's range was definitely not 95 before the phase 2 overhaul btw, more like 55). All of the others you listed except maybe the 14, and m2000 do not model probabilities of detection and presumably have guaranteed detection distances corresponding to their real 50% criteria. This skews the data a lot. 

It's pretty much guaranteed that the modelling work done by ED will carry over to the 29A. It will thus get a significant "Effective" detection range increase from that Pd spread. 

Edited July 17 by Muchocracker

[Bigity]

So I guess some rules apply to specific aircraft only

On 6/30/2025 at 6:55 AM, Schmidtfire said:

At the end of the day, it's about offering a MiG-29 experience.

Options to use the ER, ET and even R-77(!) would be good things.

With only 1 variant and full asking price of $79.99 USD, it's important to be somewhat flexible to the audience needs.

Everyone benefits from DCS: MiG-29 Fulcrum module being a successful module. I'm not advocating going full fantasy or anything, but adding a few more "plausible" loadout options to appeal to a broader audience will sell more modules. It also give more options to create more modern "what if" scenarios.

As long as there is transparency what weapons has been added as "ED version", I can't see any downsides to it...       

I agree, but the same philosophy must be applied to all aircraft, not just the Mig-29A.

[AeriaGloria]

8 hours ago, Muchocracker said:

important clarification to make here is the numbers for the 18 and 16 are its 1% single dwell time probability of detection range (the 18's range was definitely not 95 before the phase 2 overhaul btw, more like 55). All of the others you listed except maybe the 14, and m2000 do not model probabilities of detection and presumably have guaranteed detection distances corresponding to their real 50% criteria. This skews the data a lot. 

It's pretty much guaranteed that the modelling work done by ED will carry over to the 29A. It will thus get a significant "Effective" detection range increase from that Pd spread. 

The PD spread will be interesting, as its whole targeting system won’t lock until you have I think 75% POD? For both radar and IRST

[NytHawk]

23 hours ago, Weta43 said:

At face value, between 2.5.6 by 2.9 the net result is that where revisions have been made Blue detection ranges have ended up increasing and Red decreasing.

That graph shows the max range of the F-16 and F-18s radar in VSR/VS modes respectively it appears.

Yes, maximum range for RWS and TWS modes in the F16 also increased with their phase 2 radars, but PD is now factored in. Similar with the F18.


 

Edited July 17 by NytHawk

[Dragon1-1]

23 hours ago, okopanja said:

Can you tell us more about non-downgraded soviet radar and exactly what got downgraded?

The WP radar wasn't actually downgraded all that much, AFAIK. The main difference was lacking one single radar mode with better ECCM, and there are reports from Serbian pilots in Yugoslavia using that mode in combat, so even that's not certain (apparently, this mode worked similar to VS mode in Western radars and wasn't very popular with pilots). The 9.12B, sold to 3rd world countries, was the one with a significant downgrade.

In any case, R-27ER and ET use exactly the same seeker as regular R and T. Same mounting interface, too. The only important thing that's different is the big honkin' rocket booster at the back. The R-27 family is essentially modular, this is why so many variants exist.

[Logan54]

В 16.07.2025 в 13:40, Weta43 сказал:

That is an interesting graph - where did you get the underlying data?

I did it myself according avaliable DCS radar range graphycs 

Спойлер

GitHub - Quaggles/dcs-charts: A central repository for all of my DCS charts

Some of them were downloaded to my pc before, and some day I decide to do comparrison.

 

В 16.07.2025 в 14:18, okopanja сказал:

Can you tell us more about non-downgraded soviet radar and exactly what got downgraded?

Sadly no, only thing I know is downgraded radar range. But wait, seems Soviet radar had about 5 modes, WP` had only 3. And Yugoslavian/Serbian 29 is not WP MiGs, they were 29B afaik.

Edited July 17 by Logan54