MiG-29 -Customer Feedback

[Hawkeye_UK]

18 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

I mean the reality of the 70's and into about the mid 80's pretty much no Air to air fighters had CM's fitted for those missions. It was mostly ground attack. F15A no CM's, early F15C's no CM's (they tucked a chaff bundle under the speed brake, just in case), Harriers in the falklands no CM's. The list goes on and on. Ground attack aircraft variously did fit them, but it wasn't universal there either until the very late 80's.

The problem in DCS is you don't really have any options to deal with this, especially in MP. Like, great we have a 9.12... Which can fight what period opponents in MP... Oh right the F4E, Mirage F1, and "early" (not out yet) F14A from HB... But in MP servers its fighting all the F-teens from 2003 cuz the community is willfully ignorant of the realities of what fought what and when. And sadly no "early" F-teens aside from the "early" F14A are coming. 

It woulda been nice to get the Mig23 so at least we could sorta do iran/iraq for which that planeset works, but  alas that didn't happen.
 

Yea agreed with alot of what you have wrote.  That said i would also say it's never been in a better state that what we have now.  F4 vs Mig 29 in the BVR role will be interesting, but yea inclose put me in the mig everytime lol, countermeasures, not needed!  I've noticed a few wacky things with certain fox 1 shots tracking post launch and post lock lost, interesting, on non emitting (HOJ) targets.  I need to replicate and turn on track recording though to get it posted (still playing around at present and just having fun).

F14A is by far the most competant, especially if your in the back seat at range.  The 29 will not compete up high with that.  But for me it will be used in close, sneak, pull up attacks in places with lots of terrain cover to dip into and pull right up into high flying targets.  The fox 2's 73's seem to have had a boost also, unless im just getting alot of "lucky" shots.

I think there is going to be a lot of fun as this era pads out more - also big advocate of the F1, despite its radar being "cheat" mode at present but that aside its great fun.  As for the sea harriers, the chaff bundle in the airbrakes was a thing, i think it was more for the early days however and/or the fear of roland, but don't quote me on that.  They would have benefited though no doubt from a whole host of ECM from other assets too not airborne.

 

2 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

Doctrine mostly I imagine. The primary threat was manpads or IR based systems vs low flying ground attack jets. In terms of A/A combat I imagine the idea was it wasn't needed or would be ineffective since a lot of combat was ambush based. Plus unlike DCS where there is no downside to a "pixel plane", IRL carrying a bunch of highly flamable flares does come with extra risks and hazards.

At a guess the change in thinking occurred during the iran-iraq war where at least some air-to-air "myths" got busted, (like in VN, and the Arab israeli wars as well). Especially with the new "threat" of all aspect AAM's. Prior to this I think the thinking was, just fly better than the other guy and you won't need flares.

Interestingly the Mig-23MLA did have 6 large flares as stock (downward firing) and then in 82 or whenever the MLD hit, they did add the top mounted dispensers like the 29's got. Though I'm not sure what drove that thinking for the soviets, possibly stinger threats in afghanistan.

But if you want a "period" DCS server in the 60's/70's flares should probably be removed from A/A jets, and probably alot of A/G jets too depending on the setting. The obvious problem there is the "rearm" exploit for MP.

Your first point, 100% - there is a reason why flares are emergency jettisonable enmasse!

[Harlikwin]

5 minutes ago, Hawkeye_UK said:

Yea agreed with alot of what you have wrote.  That said i would also say it's never been in a better state that what we have now.  F4 vs Mig 29 in the BVR role will be interesting, but yea inclose put me in the mig everytime lol, countermeasures, not needed!  I've noticed a few wacky things with certain fox 1 shots tracking post launch and post lock lost, interesting, on non emitting (HOJ) targets.  I need to replicate and turn on track recording though to get it posted (still playing around at present and just having fun).

F14A is by far the most competant, especially if your in the back seat at range.  The 29 will not compete up high with that.  But for me it will be used in close, sneak, pull up attacks in places with lots of terrain cover to dip into and pull right up into high flying targets.  The fox 2's 73's seem to have had a boost also, unless im just getting alot of "lucky" shots.

I think there is going to be a lot of fun as this era pads out more - also big advocate of the F1, despite its radar being "cheat" mode at present but that aside its great fun.  As for the sea harriers, the chaff bundle in the airbrakes was a thing, i think it was more for the early days however and/or the fear of roland, but don't quote me on that.  They would have benefited though no doubt from a whole host of ECM from other assets too not airborne.

 

Yeah agreed, the best we can do period wise in DCS, is F4/14(early) vs the 29 for a vaguely peer setup. Which does fit iran/iraq (The very end  of it) or would also fit CW germany for 83 or therabouts, since the bulk of the luftwaffe and most other allied airforces were flying F4's, F5's, and f104s (coming soon tm). There were only a few barely working F15's in theatre (3 squadrons), and a few F16/A10 squadrons as well for the USAF, but it was a transition period then. Would be nice to have gotten that 23 to flesh out the 70's era, but it is what it is. And the new Su-17/22 mod looks  pretty good, so hopefully that will come soon as well to flesh out the period AF's.

As for the 29, its a fairly typical ED release. The  most annoying thing being IFF not working in MP, but that seems to be a literal ED trademark at this point, cuz it didn't work with the F18 or 16 on release either IIRC,  I'm hoping the "week1" patch fixes that. Also, hopefully the SPO gets "Fixed" so it works as it should based on the feedback in the other thread (not really sure why they did it like that in the first place). And then the COOP modes for the radar/IR.

On the upside, I'm actually stunned that the IRST sees clouds, so hopefully IR missiles will see them (and be blocked) soon(tm). 

Edited 23 hours ago by Harlikwin

[Schmidtfire]

37 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

Yeah agreed, the best we can do period wise in DCS, is F4/14(early) vs the 29 for a vaguely peer setup. Which does fit iran/iraq (The very end  of it) or would also fit CW germany for 83 or therabouts, since the bulk of the luftwaffe and most other allied airforces were flying F4's, F5's, and f104s (coming soon tm).

1983 is a bit early for MIG-29 over CW Germany. Unless you're aiming for a scenario where a couple of the very first Soviet aircraft is put into action.

From what I can find the MIG-29 was declared fully operational around 1985 and East German Air Force received MIG-29 between 1988-1989. 

Edited 23 hours ago by Schmidtfire

[The Gryphon]

1 hour ago, Harlikwin said:

Would be nice to have gotten that 23 to flesh out the 70's era, but it is what it is. 

I fully agree. The MIG-23 has been requested by the community for a long time. It would sell very well so it would be a win-win both for ED & community. Sure there must be public information about the MIG-23 and a bird standing in a museum they can use for reference?

[Hawkeye_UK]

1 hour ago, Harlikwin said:

ould be nice to have gotten that 23 to flesh out the 70's era, but it is what it is

Yea Harlikwin i share your sentiments on this about the Mig23.  Without going to off topic from the 29 and just briefly in reply I'm optimistic that this will still be done one day, and done with due justice with a stable third party or by ED themselves.  It's simply too iconic not too, on that rationale alone is why i think it will come, one day, just not from who we first thought or announced it.  Given the Harrier and M2000 development that doesn't actually bother me, i'd rather wait for it to be given justice without the pulling teeth battles that occured with the community at times over those modules.

The Mig 21 is alot of fun, one of the better modules it has to be said (but i'm a long standing fan of it so probably biased in that regard).  I also hope on a separate point that HB get to do the F111 given the pedigree they have brought in both swing wing and duel crew systems.  Side by side, co-op MP would be immense fun in that thing.

[Harlikwin]

3 hours ago, Schmidtfire said:

1983 is a bit early for MIG-29 over CW Germany. Unless you're aiming for a scenario where a couple of the very first Soviet aircraft is put into action.

From what I can find the MIG-29 was declared fully operational around 1985 and East German Air Force received MIG-29 between 1988-1989. 

Yeah fair enough, but the point generally holds, like even in 85 it was still fighting, F4's, starfighters, F5's etc as the average NATO jet. And handful of of 16A's that were doing strike stuff mostly. Again, I'd love it if we had the 23MLA in DCS but well that fell apart... Cuz that would be the good 80's scenario, bulk of the warpac jets some flavor of 23, with a sprinkiling of mig29's. And NATO the bulk, older jets with a sprinkling of "teen" jets. 

2 hours ago, The Gryphon said:

I fully agree. The MIG-23 has been requested by the community for a long time. It would sell very well so it would be a win-win both for ED & community. Sure there must be public information about the MIG-23 and a bird standing in a museum they can use for reference?

It was 90% done by Razbam, before "the troubles", it woulda been ready last year supposedly. 

But hey we got the 29 so lets focus on that, and making the most of it. I think it will evolve into a decent enough module given a bit of time. I'm personally curious about ED is gonna do GCI... Maybe AI GCI, that would be cool. 

Edited 19 hours ago by Harlikwin

[Ramius007]

F-15C vs Fulcrum IRL were asymetric fights most of the time, with one side having all AWACS/ECM support and numerical advenatage, if you recreate those parameters in DCS and switch planes, Fulcrum will be performing similar to RL Eagle, you can notice this on PvP servers. Also remember about RL dffrence in flight hours betwean "West and "East" pilots.

[Harlikwin]

1 hour ago, Ramius007 said:

F-15C vs Fulcrum IRL were asymetric fights most of the time, with one side having all AWACS/ECM support and numerical advenatage, if you recreate those parameters in DCS and switch planes, Fulcrum will be performing similar to RL Eagle, you can notice this on PvP servers. Also remember about RL dffrence in flight hours betwean "West and "East" pilots.

I mean doctrinally mig29 pilots were told not to engage eagles. Vipers were fair game tho. 

[TotenDead]

17 минут назад, Harlikwin сказал:

I mean doctrinally mig29 pilots were told not to engage eagles. Vipers were fair game tho. 

Eh, were they And how would they know if there were F-15s in the air

[NineLine]

Guys, this is supposed to be feedback on the DCS: MiG-29A Fulcrum. Please take other conversations elsewhere; I would rather not close it if I don't have to. Thanks. 

[AeriaGloria]

I love it. But using the most un charitable malfunctioned modeling of the SPO-15 with radar on really dampens my enthusiasm. IRST is great work. But the SPO-15…. Makes me sad when I have all these documents describing the blanking circuits between radar and SPO

[The Gryphon]

I really like the flightmodel of the Fulcrum, to the point is has now become my main airplane to fly. I don't know if 100% accurate reflect the real flightmodel, but i don't care, the MIG is so much fun. I feel connected to the MIG on a deep level, especially in VR. The lack of training missions is the only thing I am missing in this module.

Edited 13 hours ago by The Gryphon

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

3 hours ago, The Gryphon said:

The lack of training missions is the only thing I am missing in this module.

[Flyout]

16 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

Nope... please stop repeating this. Its wrong. You have been corrected by like half a dozen people in the other thread.

Why are you trying to shut me up?
I claim that the SPO in ED is modeled correctly, and you're wrong. I'm basing my analysis on numerous Soviet combat manuals.
It's just that you don't seem to have this information.

[Flyout]

10 hours ago, Ramius007 said:

F-15C vs Fulcrum IRL were asymetric fights most of the time, with one side having all AWACS/ECM support and numerical advenatage, if you recreate those parameters in DCS and switch planes, Fulcrum will be performing similar to RL Eagle, you can notice this on PvP servers. Also remember about RL dffrence in flight hours betwean "West and "East" pilots.

I disagree. The F-15 outperforms the MiG-29 in every way, from its radar to its flight characteristics. Which is fine, since they're different classes of aircraft.

[Ramius007]

1 hour ago, Flyout said:

I disagree. The F-15 outperforms the MiG-29 in every way, from its radar to its flight characteristics. Which is fine, since they're different classes of aircraft.

I never said, that Fulcrum is better or even as good as Eagle, I m just saying, that even in DCS, while in SOME circumstances they are close, overall Eagle is much better. My point was, that combat scenarios involving those 2 were assymetrical, also be mindfull, about 3rd grade export variants, used by Iraq during Desert Storm, no helmet cuing system and R-73's, and in those fights where they faced Eagles, this IMO mattered. You can find raports from those fights online from US pilots perspective.

Edited 7 hours ago by Ramius007

[Bremspropeller]

1 hour ago, Flyout said:

I disagree. The F-15 outperforms the MiG-29 in every way, from its radar to its flight characteristics. Which is fine, since they're different classes of aircraft.

It doesn't.
While it's got way better sensors and air power projection (gas, range, weapon load), the 29 actually has better sustained and instantaneous turn capabilities*. It should also have better vertical capabilities. Plus in it's time, it had the helmet sight over the Eagle with Mikes at best. The Eagle can be dangerous WVR, but it's not a guaranteed win - far from it.

Ze Germans found out that you could actually out-bingo an Eagle when playing a bit dirty. But that's in an artificial setup.
_____
* that's from Spanky's video, who had a decent amount of hours in both jets