Pre Designate

[AeriaGloria]

So, I’ve seen a lot of confusion about Pre Designate. The ED manual doesn’t explain it’s true purpose as they just say “do it if you have time.” 
 

I made this short video to explain its true purpose and other random air to ground things. It is actually for wind and target movement compensation, and seems to work very well on both accounts. 
 

I almost completely sure Wags demo in his video was slightly misunderstood, you don’t need to track the target for 2-4 seconds with pre designate before releasing lock button (EDIT my mistake, found an obscure German manual saying to do so for exactly 3 seconds). You only need to put pre designate reticule on the target and release, and it’s 2-4 seconds AFTER you release lock button that you have max accuracy (there is minimum time of 2 seconds after releasing lock button before corrections can be completely computed.) 

This is why if you pre designate and move nose away, the reticule lags because it’s compensating lead for target movement. 
 

Anyways no need to watch my video, but if you want every scrap of air to ground knowledge go ahead lol 

 

Edited yesterday at 10:56 AM by AeriaGloria

[IvanK]

To give the system a chance you need to be very controlled and Track the target whilst pre designating. Same goes for flying the Dive Toss smooth steady application of G. A wild snatch doesn't give the system a fair go.

The Russian manual actually states Pre designation not required with wind < 5msec. It also sates that the Pre designation period needs to be a minimum of 2 seconds.

[AeriaGloria]

1 hour ago, IvanK said:

To give the system a chance you need to be very controlled and Track the target whilst pre designating. Same goes for flying the Dive Toss smooth steady application of G. A wild snatch doesn't give the system a fair go.

The Russian manual actually states Pre designation not required with wind < 5msec. It also sates that the Pre designation period needs to be a minimum of 2 seconds.

But whenever I read combat employment it never mentions tracking target, only releasing lock on target and waiting 2 seconds? 
 

Huh, in German manual I see “hold pre designate on target for 3 seconds.” I wonder why it’s not in combat employment? 
 

Thanks for info on wind speeds!

Edited yesterday at 02:43 AM by AeriaGloria

[The Gryphon]

Excellent video @AeriaGloria! Thanks for bringing more understanding to us, I really had no clue. I think it is awesome the MIG-29A can hit a moving target with a built-in targeting system in the airframe, many other aircraft like F-16/F-18 uses targeting-pod / TPOD to hit moving targets, but the MIG does it by itself!

@AeriaGloria can you make a video in slow-motion demonstrating each step how to use pre-designate (with focus on the HUD), because all videos I have seen on Youtube does this very fast, and I have a hard time to understand how to place the markers, what each markers does, how to place the new markers, when to release the bombs and so on. I would be very grateful and appreciate a video like this  if it is even possible you could share a video like this!

[AeriaGloria]

1 hour ago, The Gryphon said:

Excellent video @AeriaGloria! Thanks for bringing more understanding to us, I really had no clue. I think it is awesome the MIG-29A can hit a moving target with a built-in targeting system in the airframe, many other aircraft like F-16/F-18 uses targeting-pod / TPOD to hit moving targets, but the MIG does it by itself!

@AeriaGloria can you make a video in slow-motion demonstrating each step how to use pre-designate (with focus on the HUD), because all videos I have seen on Youtube does this very fast, and I have a hard time to understand how to place the markers, what each markers does, how to place the new markers, when to release the bombs and so on. I would be very grateful and appreciate a video like this  if it is even possible you could share a video like this!

Thanks, not sure about a video just yet. 
 

But all that matters is your target, a vehicle for instance. You put the pre designate on the vehicle. Release lock on the vehicle. Then put your reticule on the vehicle. If CCRP just hold fire button when pipper is on vehicle. 
 

Without pre designate for CCRP you just cover vehicle with pipper and hold fire button. 
 

For example go to end of my video, I do a rocker run. You can set YouTube to play at 0.5x speed or 0.25x speed. I put pre designate on target, release lock, then cover target with pipper to fire. 

[JayDee1974]

I am not seeing the same range scaling on my HUD. When bombing it always is clamped to 2.5 range scale. Has anyone else the same problem?

[AdrianL]

7 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

None of the ED material or videos explain what it’s true purpose

Wags explains it here. How I knew about it. But it is easy to miss.
Hopefully the manual will be expanded on, a lot

 

Edited yesterday at 09:00 AM by AdrianL

[The Gryphon]

2 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

.You can set YouTube to play at 0.5x speed or 0.25x speed. 

That should do it! No video needed , thanks for the help AeriaGloria! 

[AeriaGloria]

1 hour ago, AdrianL said:

Wags explains it here. How I knew about it. But it is easy to miss.
Hopefully the manual will be expanded on, a lot

 

Ah you are correct!!! Nice find!!! I did record this the night before the AG video came out, and took way too long getting it out. 

Edited yesterday at 10:54 AM by AeriaGloria

[NineLine]

5 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

Ah you are correct!!! Nice find!!! I did record this the night before the AG video came out, and took way too long getting it out. 

These videos can be very complex to make and to make accurately (would you have preferred he made the video while there was an accuracy issue with bombs?), and it was out less than a week from release. You don't have to show appreciation for these things, but please try not to disparage the work that goes into them. Thanks.

[Ironhand]

2 hours ago, NineLine said:

These videos can be very complex to make and to make accurately (would you have preferred he made the video while there was an accuracy issue with bombs?), and it was out less than a week from release. You don't have to show appreciation for these things, but please try not to disparage the work that goes into them. Thanks.

I think you misunderstood stood him. He said that it took too long to get HIS video out.

Edited yesterday at 07:28 PM by Ironhand

[AeriaGloria]

3 hours ago, NineLine said:

These videos can be very complex to make and to make accurately (would you have preferred he made the video while there was an accuracy issue with bombs?), and it was out less than a week from release. You don't have to show appreciation for these things, but please try not to disparage the work that goes into them. Thanks.

My apologies.
 

   Yes I took too long getting my video out, I intended to get it out the day before the AG video, but life gets in the way.
 

  No issue with Wags timeframe, it was impressively quick production for such a long video, which I am very aware can be exhausting to make. Thought I do believe the purpose of pre designate should be added to the manual rather then “do it if you have time.” As Ivan kindly told me, it was only meant for 5 m/s wind or more. 

Edited yesterday at 07:44 PM by AeriaGloria

[IvanK]

18 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

But whenever I read combat employment it never mentions tracking target, only releasing lock on target and waiting 2 seconds? 
 

Huh, in German manual I see “hold pre designate on target for 3 seconds.” I wonder why it’s not in combat employment? 

The process of tracking the target with the Lock on depressed with the sighting reticle on the target is to "build" the target motion/wind speed info/correction. (its kind of like the process with an LCOSS gunsight ... tracking time is required to build the solution/correction). When you release the lock on button the correction determined by the tracking process is then applied to the CCIP pipper .. thats why you see it move slightly. You then move the now wind/motion corrected CCIP to the target and pickle. the Russian manual states that you have 10 seconds from lock on release to pickle. After 10 seconds the wind/motion correction is removed and the solution is then back to being a nil wind/motion CCIP.  The Russian manual also states that best accuracy is shown at 4 seconds after lock on release. To me that implies that the correction is actually washed out to zero at the 10 second point.

Exactly the same thing happens with the CCRP/delayed CCIP solution its just the correction is applied to the steering circle and release point.

In all cases in any bombing method on any platform smooth methodical flying is required to achieve the best results. Rough rushed handling just doesn't give the WCS a chance to do its thing properly. 

[AeriaGloria]

2 hours ago, IvanK said:

The process of tracking the target with the Lock on depressed with the sighting reticle on the target is to "build" the target motion/wind speed info/correction. (its kind of like the process with an LCOSS gunsight ... tracking time is required to build the solution/correction). When you release the lock on button the correction determined by the tracking process is then applied to the CCIP pipper .. thats why you see it move slightly. You then move the now wind/motion corrected CCIP to the target and pickle. the Russian manual states that you have 10 seconds from lock on release to pickle. After 10 seconds the wind/motion correction is removed and the solution is then back to being a nil wind/motion CCIP.  The Russian manual also states that best accuracy is shown at 4 seconds after lock on release. To me that implies that the correction is actually washed out to zero at the 10 second point.

Exactly the same thing happens with the CCRP/delayed CCIP solution its just the correction is applied to the steering circle and release point.

In all cases in any bombing method on any platform smooth methodical flying is required to achieve the best results. Rough rushed handling just doesn't give the WCS a chance to do its thing properly. 

Thank you that clears up why! 
 

After you release lock, is it reasonable that it’s also comparing the spot you pre designated with current pipper position?

It seems to atleast do this for motion compensation, as you move the pipper it lags as if trying to provide lead for a moving target in the direction you move your nose. Giving the impression that it’s harder then normal to move the pipper

[IvanK]

As far as I can make out whether its wind or target motion is irrelevant. You the pilot just need to do your pilot stuff to track the target so that will take in to account both wind and target motion ... the result is then applied as a simple total vector correction to the nil wing/tgt motion CCIP.

[AeriaGloria]

It just seems there are two factors it takes into account 

1. following the target with pre designation 

2. movement of pipper compared to pre designation 

You can tell pipper isn’t exactly moving normally after pre designate. 
 

I had a time I pre designated a moving vehicle on a road, the vehicle made a sharp 90 degrees left turn after the pre designate. I put my pipper on it ( within the 10 second limit) and my bullets we’re just the tiniest bit off.

[The Gryphon]

I kind of like the challenge of bombing in the MIG because in the F-16/F-18 it takes no skill at all. In the MIG you actually have to develop skills, but it is not on a crazy difficult level like bombing with the warbirds (WW2). The MIG-29A Fulcrum strikes a perfect balance.

Edited 20 hours ago by The Gryphon

[SlipHavoc]

30 minutes ago, The Gryphon said:

I kind of like the challenge of bombing in the MIG because in the F-16/F-18 it takes no skill at all. In the MIG you actually have to develop skills, but it is not on a crazy difficult level like bombing with the warbirds (WW2). The MIG-29A Fulcrum strikes a perfect balance.

The skill in the F-16, F-18, and other more advanced planes isn't in the bombing itself, it's in bombing more heavily defended targets, in worse weather and/or at night, while still being able to keep SA on other threats or respond quickly to support calls.  Doing all of that also takes skills, just different ones than the MiG-29 requires, in the same way that manual dive bombing in the MiG-15 or F-86 requires different skills in the opposite direction.  For any generation of planes, there are easy missions, hard missions, and impossible missions.  The next generation of planes makes easy missions trivial, hard missions easy, and impossible missions hard, and they have their own impossible missions which would be completely suicidal in earlier generations.

[The Gryphon]

30 minutes ago, SlipHavoc said:

The skill in the F-16, F-18, and other more advanced planes isn't in the bombing itself, it's in bombing more heavily defended targets, in worse weather and/or at night, while still being able to keep SA on other threats or respond quickly to support calls.  Doing all of that also takes skills, just different ones than the MiG-29 requires, in the same way that manual dive bombing in the MiG-15 or F-86 requires different skills in the opposite direction.  For any generation of planes, there are easy missions, hard missions, and impossible missions.  The next generation of planes makes easy missions trivial, hard missions easy, and impossible missions hard, and they have their own impossible missions which would be completely suicidal in earlier generations.

Yes I agree you bring a really good point, I remember when I started DCS years back I asked in the multiplayer chat what aircraft to buy, the reply was what mission do you want to fly?

Basically you buy a aircraft after the mission. To get back on topic (so the mods don´t close this thread) when it comes to bombing itself, I just find the MIG-29A strikes a perfect balance in difficult level, it kind of blends technology with pilot skill in a really good way.