cailean_556 Posted 15 hours ago Posted 15 hours ago When I talk of imbalance, I don't mean giving each side weapons with the same range or capabilities. I mean in terms of options. With the reveal (perhaps unintentional, but still) that a Rafale is coming to DCS, it appears that yet another BLUFOR aircraft is entering the DCS hangar. That's great new for DCS, especially for BLUFOR pilots, but leaves REDFOR feeling unloved (regardless of the many, legitimate reasons why). The BLUFOR line up looks like this (in no specific order): -F-100D Super Saber -Tornado IDS -F-15C (AIM-120 and AIM-9X capable) -F-35A (AIM-120 and AIM-9X capable, GBU-12/31/32) -Typhoon (Meteor, IRIS-T, AIM-120 and AIM-9L capable) -Rafale (meaning MICA capable, at a minimum) -C-130 (Release soon) -A-7E -A-6E -A-1H Skyraider -Kfir C2/C7 The REDFOR line up, as far as I am aware, currently looks like this -MiG-29A (Released in EA at time of writing) -Su-25A Grach (ED has hinted, but not committed to/announced officially) With the Dynamic Campaign coming to DCS in the near future (release still TBC), anyone wishing to play 'REDFOR' in a Dynamic Campaign is going to either be a) relying on more sophisticated AI-only aircraft (such as the Tu-22M3, Su-24MR, Su-34 and [graphically hideous] Su-30) for much of its high-performance SEAD, anti-ship and all-weather strike capabilities, b) being unable to undertake particular mission sets (such as SEAD and all-weather strike) with the full-fidelity modules they have or c) relying on Flaming Cliffs 3-level aircraft modules - particularly the Su-25T and Su-25 - to conduct any form of guided/precision strikes or SEAD themselves. REDFOR needs a Cold War-era Flanker. The most obvious and "quick win" Flanker for ED to produce as a full-fidelity module is the Su-27S Flanker-B. It is essentially to the FC-3 Su-27, what the MiG-29A Fulcrum is to the FC3 MiG-29A: A full-fidelity module of the same aircraft, but with better presentation. The Su-27S was capable of unguided ground-attack - they were, by treaty, later 'upgraded' to Su-27P standard to remove their ground attack capability. If the MiG-29A Fulcrum was well-received, a full-fidelity Flanker is going to exceed that. REDFOR needs a modern Flanker. The Su-27S will scratch the Cold War itch however, when you place the MiG-29A and a hypothetical Su-27S into a more modern scenario - they show their age against post-2000s BLUFOR AMRAAM-capable (or equivalent) jets. The most capable/advanced full-fidelity 'REDFOR' jet currently is the JF-17 which doesn't even belong to a major 'Cold War' nation. To compete against BLUFOR in this manner, REDFOR needs a more modern Flanker. To this end, I propose the Su-30MKK. -It is an early 2000s-developed Flanker. -It is a non-canard (i.e. not MKI-derived) Flanker that doesn't have thrust-vectoring ("simplified" development). -Uses the N001VE Mech radar (an export version of the Su-27s radar, modified for China specifically - for use with R-77) -Despite being a Chinese-specific variant, it uses predominantly Russian weapons systems already in DCS. -It is a two-seat Flanker intended for both air dominance and ground/sea attack, a REDFOR option for a Strike Eagle. -Utilises R-73, R-27, R-77, Kh-29T, Kh-31, Kh-35 and Kh-59 in addition to Russian unguided and laser/TV-guided ordnance. -It is capable of in-flight refueling - a first for a full-fidelity Russian-designed REDFOR aircraft. -By having a second seat, it enables the development of an AI 'backseater' - which alone justifies a 'new module' and not a 'modernised' old one. -It is capable of using and firing the AA-12/R-77 - making it the first full-fidelity REDFOR aircraft capable of doing so. -The Su-30MKK is the base model for variants of the Flanker used by Vietnam, Uganda, Venezuela, Indonesia, China (obviously) and Russia. -Russia uses the Su-30M2 (which is a 'Russianised' Su-30MK2 - a more advanced variant of the Su-30MKK) in its air force as a lead-in trainer. Why I see the Su-30MKK as being more viable than the more advanced Su-30MKI (or an MKI-derviative) is because it's an older export aircraft, its systems are less capable than the Su-27SM, Su-35S, Su-30SM/SM2, Su-30MKI, Su-30MK2, J-11BS or J-16 - but it still provides options that aren't available to other REDFOR modules based on its intended role - air dominance and strike. It would draw massive interest due to having an AI-backseater (which ED is no stranger to, for helos - and ED could draw from Heatblur's experience in fixed-wing AI-backseaters to expedite development). The aircraft could be used (by players) as a stand-in for countries that use MKI-derived Flanker variants, including Russia. While, "pound for pound" it might not be the exact equal of post-2000s BLUFOR aircraft, it is certainly a dramatic step-up in terms of full-fidelity capability for REDFOR aircraft enthusiasts. Thank you for reading. 1 1
draconus Posted 14 hours ago Posted 14 hours ago (edited) 1 hour ago, cailean_556 said: REDFOR needs a Cold War-era Flanker. REDFOR needs a modern Flanker. Yes, would be nice and is of course requested for years, every week but the reasons are still the same: redfor sells worse that US made aircraft docs and SME's are more hard to find and use as a source legally even looking for it may endanger ED - especially its russian/belarus employees 1 hour ago, cailean_556 said: Su-25A Grach (ED has hinted, but not committed to/announced officially) If it's in newsletter then it's official but mind it won't be full fidelity. Moreover ED claims that they'll look how MiG-29A Fulcrum sales go and if it's good they'll reconsider doing more/modern redfor aircraft. Edited 14 hours ago by draconus 1 Win10 i7-10700KF 32GB RTX4070S Quest 3 T16000M VPC CDT-VMAX TFRP FC3 MiG-29A F-14A/B F-15E CA SC NTTR PG Syria
MAXsenna Posted 13 hours ago Posted 13 hours ago Pretty sure we'll get both FF Su-25 and FF Su-27 if the MiG-29 sells well. So, do your part everyone!I truly wish we could get more Cold War aircraft.Oh, ok and BTW. You can add the F-8 to your list I suppose. Even if it hasn't been officially announced yet.Cheers! Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk 4
Silver_Dragon Posted 9 hours ago Posted 9 hours ago (edited) 7 hours ago, cailean_556 said: The BLUFOR line up looks like this (in no specific order): -F-100D Super Saber -Tornado IDS -F-15C (AIM-120 and AIM-9X capable) -F-35A (AIM-120 and AIM-9X capable, GBU-12/31/32) -Typhoon (Meteor, IRIS-T, AIM-120 and AIM-9L capable) -Rafale (meaning MICA capable, at a minimum) -C-130 (Release soon) -A-7E -A-6E -A-1H Skyraider -Kfir C2/C7 The REDFOR line up, as far as I am aware, currently looks like this -MiG-29A (Released in EA at time of writing) -Su-25A Grach (ED has hinted, but not committed to/announced officially) With the Dynamic Campaign coming to DCS in the near future (release still TBC), anyone wishing to play 'REDFOR' in a Dynamic Campaign is going to either be a) relying on more sophisticated AI-only aircraft (such as the Tu-22M3, Su-24MR, Su-34 and [graphically hideous] Su-30) for much of its high-performance SEAD, anti-ship and all-weather strike capabilities, b) being unable to undertake particular mission sets (such as SEAD and all-weather strike) with the full-fidelity modules they have or c) relying on Flaming Cliffs 3-level aircraft modules - particularly the Su-25T and Su-25 - to conduct any form of guided/precision strikes or SEAD themselves. REDFOR needs a Cold War-era Flanker. The most obvious and "quick win" Flanker for ED to produce as a full-fidelity module is the Su-27S Flanker-B. It is essentially to the FC-3 Su-27, what the MiG-29A Fulcrum is to the FC3 MiG-29A: A full-fidelity module of the same aircraft, but with better presentation. The Su-27S was capable of unguided ground-attack - they were, by treaty, later 'upgraded' to Su-27P standard to remove their ground attack capability. If the MiG-29A Fulcrum was well-received, a full-fidelity Flanker is going to exceed that. REDFOR needs a modern Flanker. The Su-27S will scratch the Cold War itch however, when you place the MiG-29A and a hypothetical Su-27S into a more modern scenario - they show their age against post-2000s BLUFOR AMRAAM-capable (or equivalent) jets. The most capable/advanced full-fidelity 'REDFOR' jet currently is the JF-17 which doesn't even belong to a major 'Cold War' nation. To compete against BLUFOR in this manner, REDFOR needs a more modern Flanker. To this end, I propose the Su-30MKK. -It is an early 2000s-developed Flanker. -It is a non-canard (i.e. not MKI-derived) Flanker that doesn't have thrust-vectoring ("simplified" development). -Uses the N001VE Mech radar (an export version of the Su-27s radar, modified for China specifically - for use with R-77) -Despite being a Chinese-specific variant, it uses predominantly Russian weapons systems already in DCS. -It is a two-seat Flanker intended for both air dominance and ground/sea attack, a REDFOR option for a Strike Eagle. -Utilises R-73, R-27, R-77, Kh-29T, Kh-31, Kh-35 and Kh-59 in addition to Russian unguided and laser/TV-guided ordnance. -It is capable of in-flight refueling - a first for a full-fidelity Russian-designed REDFOR aircraft. -By having a second seat, it enables the development of an AI 'backseater' - which alone justifies a 'new module' and not a 'modernised' old one. -It is capable of using and firing the AA-12/R-77 - making it the first full-fidelity REDFOR aircraft capable of doing so. -The Su-30MKK is the base model for variants of the Flanker used by Vietnam, Uganda, Venezuela, Indonesia, China (obviously) and Russia. -Russia uses the Su-30M2 (which is a 'Russianised' Su-30MK2 - a more advanced variant of the Su-30MKK) in its air force as a lead-in trainer. Why I see the Su-30MKK as being more viable than the more advanced Su-30MKI (or an MKI-derviative) is because it's an older export aircraft, its systems are less capable than the Su-27SM, Su-35S, Su-30SM/SM2, Su-30MKI, Su-30MK2, J-11BS or J-16 - but it still provides options that aren't available to other REDFOR modules based on its intended role - air dominance and strike. It would draw massive interest due to having an AI-backseater (which ED is no stranger to, for helos - and ED could draw from Heatblur's experience in fixed-wing AI-backseaters to expedite development). The aircraft could be used (by players) as a stand-in for countries that use MKI-derived Flanker variants, including Russia. While, "pound for pound" it might not be the exact equal of post-2000s BLUFOR aircraft, it is certainly a dramatic step-up in terms of full-fidelity capability for REDFOR aircraft enthusiasts. Thank you for reading. Remember: First: DCS World has no "Balance". Many of that projects has 3rd Party projects, no ED. 3rd party select projects by your criteria (normaly by countries). The Mig-29A by ED, has build with info the a old Warsac Pact country, no Russia. ED has faced a sales ban from certain companies in Russia (helicopter manufacturers), resulting in the removal of several modules related to red helicopters. As Wags claim on previous Q&A, the problem has the available info, SME, resources, time and licenses to make a FF Redforce aircraft, remember the problems by Deka to make a chinesse FF aircrafts. ED has none plans to a 2010/20 Redforce aircraft. About ED projects: Su-25A FF has no claimed by ED yet, as a Su-27 FF, A-10A FF and other Mig-29 FC versions. Await ED share news about them. Actual future ED projects F6F Hellcat (Blue) F-15C (Blue) F-35A (Blue) Future Helo (Blue and/or Red) A6M5 Zero (Red) About 3rd Party projects: Aerges Mirage F-1M (Blue) F-104G/TF-104G (Blue) Airplane Simulation Company C-130J (Blue) Aviron KFIR (Blue/Red). Crosstail Studios A-1H (Blue) Deka Ironwork J-8B PP (Red) FlyingIrons Simulations: A-7E (Blue) HeatBlur Simulations: Eurofighter Trench 1 (Blue) A-6E (Blue) F-14A (Early) (Blue/Red) F-14B(U) (Blue) IndiaFoxtEcho: G.91R Gina (Blue) Magnitude 3 LLC: F-8J (Blue) Mig-21bis 2.0 (Red) MilTech 5 / PD: Bo-105 (Blue) Octopus-G La-7 (Red) Po-2 (Red) Su-17 (Red) Polychop Future Helo (Blue?) Red Star Studios: Mig-17F (Red) The Rafale has only a rumor, none 3rd party has claimed them yet. Edited 8 hours ago by Silver_Dragon 1 For Work/Gaming: 28" Philips 246E Monitor - Ryzen 7 1800X - 32 GB DDR4 - nVidia RTX1080 - SSD 860 EVO 1 TB / 860 QVO 1 TB / 860 QVO 2 TB - Win10 Pro - TM HOTAS Warthog / TPR / MDF
MAXsenna Posted 5 hours ago Posted 5 hours ago 4 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said: The Rafale has only a rumor, none 3rd party has claimed them yet. Wouldn't exactly call it a rumour the way we were told. That list is getting impressive!
Kang Posted 4 hours ago Posted 4 hours ago While I do not entirely disagree with the sentiment, I would like to remind everyone that BLUFOR and REDFOR are concepts that only live in head of your mission designer in question. I, personally, also enjoy certain scenarios that are reasonably inspired by the world I live in, but especially in multiplayer (the only place where 'balance' really means a thing) there is no rule against using the modules you want to use for the sides you want them on. The 'traditional' redfor folks have just been handed an all-new MiG-29. Long overdue, I'd say, but it's there. Use it for, like, twenty minutes, before insisting that you need something else. Thus, what it boils down to rather quickly, is just your usual 'I would like to use this particular airframe' wish.
Silver_Dragon Posted 4 hours ago Posted 4 hours ago 6 minutes ago, MAXsenna said: Wouldn't exactly call it a rumour the way we were told. That list is getting impressive! Those rumors about Dassault have been circulating since the time of the Mirage 2000C, over 10 years ago, and there has never been an official module with their name on it, nor any third-party French developer or similar project endorsed by them. So, until ED confirms it, they remain just rumors... For Work/Gaming: 28" Philips 246E Monitor - Ryzen 7 1800X - 32 GB DDR4 - nVidia RTX1080 - SSD 860 EVO 1 TB / 860 QVO 1 TB / 860 QVO 2 TB - Win10 Pro - TM HOTAS Warthog / TPR / MDF
twistking Posted 4 hours ago Posted 4 hours ago 1 minute ago, Kang said: Thus, what it boils down to rather quickly, is just your usual 'I would like to use this particular airframe' wish. I would like to see the Venn diagram of people constantly wishing for and buying new aircraft modules vs the people who fly public PvP exclusively. Is it a perfect circle? 2 My improved* wishlist after a decade with DCS *now with 17% more wishes compared to the original
Beirut Posted 4 hours ago Posted 4 hours ago 8 hours ago, MAXsenna said: Pretty sure we'll get both FF Su-25 and FF Su-27 if the MiG-29 sells well. So, do your part everyone! Steam sale starts soon, if the Mig-29 is 50% off, guaranteed I'll buy it. 1 Some of the planes, but all of the maps!
Vampyre Posted 4 hours ago Posted 4 hours ago 22 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said: Those rumors about Dassault have been circulating since the time of the Mirage 2000C, over 10 years ago, and there has never been an official module with their name on it, nor any third-party French developer or similar project endorsed by them. So, until ED confirms it, they remain just rumors... 1 Truly superior pilots are those that use their superior judgment to avoid those situations where they might have to use their superior skills. If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! "If at first you don't succeed, Carrier Landings are not for you!"
Silver_Dragon Posted 4 hours ago Posted 4 hours ago (edited) 10 minutes ago, Vampyre said: I reply them.... has a ED official press release about them confirm the module? And yes, I know all story... and "claims". Edited 4 hours ago by Silver_Dragon For Work/Gaming: 28" Philips 246E Monitor - Ryzen 7 1800X - 32 GB DDR4 - nVidia RTX1080 - SSD 860 EVO 1 TB / 860 QVO 1 TB / 860 QVO 2 TB - Win10 Pro - TM HOTAS Warthog / TPR / MDF
Vampyre Posted 4 hours ago Posted 4 hours ago It's up to the mission maker to balance the missions. If you want redfor/bluefor balance with historical parity, the MiG-29 (and FC3 Su-27) will be pitted against aircraft available at the very end of the cold war (1985-1991). Its historical peers currently in the game are the F-14A/B, F-4E, F-5E, and Mirage F1CE/EE/BE. All of the other modern fighters are mid-1990's-2010's upgrades. 2 Truly superior pilots are those that use their superior judgment to avoid those situations where they might have to use their superior skills. If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! "If at first you don't succeed, Carrier Landings are not for you!"
MAXsenna Posted 3 hours ago Posted 3 hours ago Those rumors about Dassault have been circulating since the time of the Mirage 2000C, over 10 years ago, and there has never been an official module with their name on it, nor any third-party French developer or similar project endorsed by them. So, until ED confirms it, they remain just rumors...Nah, I'm talking about NineLine's post of yesterday. Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk 2
Ornithopter Posted 49 minutes ago Posted 49 minutes ago I don't really want a Flanker. I mean, yes, I do, but not right now. I want something that is appropriate to fight my Phantom II or my Mirage F1 in the 1970s or early 80s (obviously they can fight each other). There is the MiG-21, but that is so out of date, I almost don't consider it viable anymore. The MiG-19 is never going to be updated and will probably break. Was looking forward to a MiG-23, but we know what happened with that. Maybe someday we will have a MiG-17. 1
F-2 Posted 2 minutes ago Posted 2 minutes ago MK2 would also mean air to ground modes and Chinese air to air missiles. its also mostly an export jet which helps. Radar range is still the same as the base flanker but RWR is much newer. back seater cannot fire weapons but otherwise has full control of the radar.
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