Don't Walk...Run Away from the G940

[ericinexile]

I've waited 2 months to write my true feelings about this stick. As with any new piece of equipment, time and experience will often cure initial gripes. So I have given it time and that time hasn't made a speck of difference. Everything I have learned have been adaptations and walk-arounds to overcome either the mechanical shortcomings of the stick or the flaws in the software. I've learned to make careful XML edits to profiles. I've learned to Globally force profiles manually so that the software doesn't pick the wrong one when games are loaded. I've learned to relegate the poor mini-stick to 4 zones for weapons selection because it is far too inaccurate to be used as a workable axis (Logitech learned this too--look at their own supplied DCS:Black Shark profile). I've learned that the two wheels on the throttle are almost as inaccurate as the mini-stick. I've learned to NEVER shift a DPAD or POV switch or Windows will do horrible things never before seen in my 15 years of Microsoft slavery. I've learned that the center slop is the fault of game developers and it is their responsibility to properly implement Logitech's hardware. I've learned to use a weird negative curve in DCS Axis Tuning so that FFB will (almost) work. (The problem however is that control is twitchy and unsatisfying and the trim will not hold an attitude above 200 kph). I've learned that Logitech is ASLEEP--their forum is full of complaints like those listed above and not a peep in response from Logitech Reps since early October. I've learned that Logitech will continue to insist on distributing a single piece of software to drive practically every wheel and controller they sell.

 

That's the short list.

 

The good news is that the stick itself (except for the slop) is excellent. I feel like a rock star with IL2. I never snap-roll anymore. I am able to hold an edge and usually out-turn the other guy. For that reason alone I can't completely say that I fully regret my purchase. Another thing I really love is to UNPLUG the stick and fly helicopters in X-plane with no silly centering spring--huge fun (works with Mac too)! The immersion quality of Force Feedback in games like IL2, Lomac, and Rise of Flight is exactly what I was hoping for. Black Shark on the other hand, is the one game that was hyped to benefit the most and, honestly, I like the non-ffb, old-trim-method best.

 

So unless and until Logitech wakes from their G940 slumber and do some real firmware magic I think the 940 will be relegated to the tech scrapheap along with the Apple Newton and APS film. The idea of a FFB HOTAS is brilliant. I know the customer base for such a product is small and getting smaller but I still think that with the right product it will sell. Now, can Logitech make the G940 that "right product"?

Edited November 18, 2009 by ericinexile
grammar

[sobek]

Sad but true. :doh:

[Eddie]

Can't say I'm surprised by this or the other negative reports I've seen for the g940. Their is no way they could ever have charged as little as they did for a HOTAS and pedals without cutting corners on QA and/or support to some degree IMHO.

[lawndartleo]

Quality is free over time.

Customer satisfaction

warranty costs down

repeat business

referrals

Lack of quality costs more over time.

customer dissatisfaction

warranty costs up

no repeat business

no referrals

[Pilotasso]

I've learned to NEVER shift a DPAD or POV switch or Windows will do horrible things never before seen in my 15 years of Microsoft slavery.

 

Also got G940,I see this too. I blaim the software entirely. The slop doesnt quite ruin the game for me because every single HOTAS I ever owned had such slop and other worse "features".

 

 

But Im collecting HOTAS, got a CH, X52, the G940 and also a range of other thrustmaster offering and 2 MS sidwinders, one of them FFB wich reminds me had feedback erection problems ( :D ) so nothing new on the ffb compromose front (it always sacrifices something).

 

May get crazy and get one of the A-10 HOTAS offering either from TM or CH (who knows both). ;)

[ddahlstrom]

This largely reflects my feelings too. Here's a reprint of the review I posted to Amazon.com a couple days ago...

 

The G940 is a potentially great product that is difficult to give a *star* rating to. The reason is that your experience with it is going to depend hugely on what games you use it with, what your expectations are, and how patient you are.

 

If you are using this stick on a game that is programmed to use FFB effects and these effects have been programmed "correctly" (i.e. programmed in a manner specifically specified by Logitech for this stick), then you will probably have a wonderful experience. The trouble is, very few games are programmed to take advantage of this yet. So even though I believe the hardware on this system is top notch and capable of very high precision, its hard to know what will work well and what won't right now. FSX with the FS Force add-on evidently works great, for example, but other recent games such as DCS: Black Shark have poor FFB performance on this stick (other FFB sticks are said to be much better). Another very common issue with this stick is "slop", which is seen in many FFB games (including Black Shark), and is exhibited in EVERY non-FFB game. Basically, this means that the center 10 to 20 percent of travel in the middle of this stick has almost no center spring effect. This is a nasty, nasty issue that can evidently be overcome through software (either Logitech's for non-FFB games, or the game makers for FFB games), but to this date Logitech has not yet addressed this in non-FFB mode and this remains an unresolved issue for many FFB games. This is why, if you are expecting a great FFB experience out of the box, it will depend on games you own, whether the "slop" is an issue for you, and how patient you are to wait for Logitech and game makers to fix these issues.

 

I have heard that other Logitech FFB stick have similar issues, but one thing they need to know loud and clear is that when you introduce a serious HOTAS product with this kind of price tag, issues that aren't a big deal in a lower-end stick are just not acceptable in a product targeted at more "serious" use.

 

I purchased my first FFB stick (an MS FFB Pro) about ten years ago and it's amazing to me that the industry still doesn't have its act together. I enjoyed that stick for quite a while, but I stopped using that stick many years ago when I went with a full HOTAS setup, which up until now had no vendors offering a FFB solution. I had high hopes for the G940, but so far they are not yet met. I do have to say that the stick does offer other features that are quite nice and which overcome the FFB deficiencies fairly well for me. I am also going to hold out for improved software as Logitech is providing some strong hints that future revs of their profile software are going to offer some big improvements. Hopefully, this will be enough to push this stick to a solid 5 star rating.

[Scarecrow]

I got the G940 aswell and I'm happy to gamble on future sims having correct FFB implementation so I can live with the slop. What I can't deal with is the 4% jump on all the sliders when you reverse the direction of the axis i.e push throttle to 52% and try to ease it back to 51% and you end up at 48% and vice versa this makes this system absolutely useless for any serious flight sims. And G940Mark has dissappeard from any of the forums that he used to advertise this product, I fear it may be a programming task that is outwith Logitechs capability

[Yskonyn]

The feedback on the device seems to be dying slowly.

I hope this is good news and people are actually happy.

I saw there's version .08 now of the software. Does it have any improvements?

[ericinexile]

The feedback on the device seems to be dying slowly.

I hope this is good news and people are actually happy.

I saw there's version .08 now of the software. Does it have any improvements?

 

Well the original post is two days old so I don't knaw if negative feedback is dying. 5.08 is 3 months old and did fix a few problems. Don't buy this stick on hope of future improvements. (or if you do wait for folks like me to unload cheap.)

[159th_Viper]

You know - Sometimes in this Day and Age I Wonder what it will take to actually just Produce/Release a Product that Works FFS! :music_whistling: /Rant Over

Minor Teething/Software issues I can understand - but the Ball-Busting that you Gents have to undertake just to end up with Less-than-Satisfactory performance for the Purpose for which it was designed for in the first instance is Soul-Destroying........

 

Whilst I am Disheartened on your Good Fellows' Behalf, I take Solace in the Fact that I have been saved a Princely Sum of £260-00, an amount which just a few Months prior I would have been more than Happy to Spend!

 

Bou 'n Nasie......:doh:

[CyBerkut]

Ditto, on what 159th Viper said. Only in my case, it is U.S. Dollars. It is disheartening to see something that appears to be so close, yet still falls short of the mark in ways that are not readily remedied by the end users.

[ericinexile]

What is peculiar to me is Logitech's response...or lack of. Initially, in September and early October, a Logi Rep named "Mark" (or "Logitech_Mark") was fairly active on this forum, SimHQ, and the Logitech Support Community. He did his best to explain improvements with each Profiler fix, encourage game developer support, and encourage users that there was a light at the end of the tunnel. More than a few of us were aware of the controller's limitations but we dove in with the belief that there is no way Logitech is going to let hundreds of thousands of dollars of R & D, not to mention reputation, go to waste on a doomed product. Well Logitech, and Mark, have been silent since mid-October. There is no, zero, nada support on the Logitech forum. There are a myriad of damning posts that potential customers are reading with no official reply. The fact that moderators let these posts stick with no editing is no longer admirable to me, it's just pathetic. It's as if they've given up and no longer care about reputation or sales. They just wish the whole thing would just go away.

 

But HEY! That's just me thinking out loud. It's probably a great product with a great future. Anybody want to buy a slightly used G940? They can't keep 'em on the shelves, you know.

[ddahlstrom]

What is peculiar to me is Logitech's response...or lack of. Initially, in September and early October, a Logi Rep named "Mark" (or "Logitech_Mark") was fairly active on this forum, SimHQ, and the Logitech Support Community.

 

I just noticed a response from Logitech_Mark on the thread just below this one from yesterday (i.e. G940 Problem). Also, based on a detailed response from him not too long ago on the Logitech forums about some of these issues, I remain hopeful that they will make some of the improvements we're all looking for.

[emenance]

I was afraid of this, Like I said they really needed to be traveling to DCS and working directly with them if they are really interested in more sales. i can understand seeing the stick hit the market and working with less complex sims etc etc . I dont understand what seems to be an after thought in sales, engineering, performance etc. in respect to DCS, or us in general.

 

I know game publisher want a bees like UBI crap, those discusting people will release a game in BETA and rip you off $50.00 bucks all the while telling you to go home and see your mother about growing up. I was not aware this kind of practice was coming to EXPENSIVE PC GAMING HARDWARE! Im shocked!!!

[Yskonyn]

What is peculiar to me is Logitech's response...or lack of. Initially, in September and early October, a Logi Rep named "Mark" (or "Logitech_Mark") was fairly active on this forum, SimHQ, and the Logitech Support Community.

 

Exactly my point about "feedback seems to be dying slowly".

We're in the same situation as late october as far as feedback goes and with so many question marks and people being dissatisfied you would expect feedback and support going full steam ahead, which would result in feedback on the various sim forums as well.

Nothing anymore for the past weeks.

[Scarecrow]

I noticed Logitech_Mark has avoided commenting within this thread probably due to the fact that he's not technically representing Logitech on these forums but I'm sure he's looked here and in the IL2 forum were there are a couple of quite damning reviews of the G940 and Logitechs closed doors, zero transparency approach to support. So he'll know that his potential customers will be reading these reviews and drawing their own conclusions.

What worries me is the refusel to comment on future software releases and the complete and utter lack of response about the throttle/rotaries problem.

Edited November 22, 2009 by Scarecrow

[Total]

Same as with the Logitech Extreme 3D joystick and the PPPL syndrome.

 

"perpetually pulled partially left"

 

They never would acknowledge nor fix it. Even with many complaints about it, they kept saying it was the user's USB ports.

 

Went to Saitek and never looked back.

[MA_Goblin]

Hi,

 

I have a G940 since a week and I'm happy with the over-all buid and quality but as you say, the FF "deadzone" is not good neither acceptable with thise price.

This is not to be confused with input deadzone because that is non existing and this makes the above even worse since every little movement is registred and converted into action :).

 

I hope they correct this in the software soon because I'm firmly convinced that it is possible to adjust this and that they have created this "zone" as a protection of the stick itself and trying to get the game manufacturers to cancel it out in the game itself.

 

It could be solved by implementing a background force immitating the machanical linkagage or hydraulics in the real plane. This force should be availiable to choose in the GUI and thus be on all the time centering the stick and small enough to be easily overridden by the game forces.

 

just an idea.

 

regards

[Hunt3r.j2]

Hi,

 

I have a G940 since a week and I'm happy with the over-all buid and quality but as you say, the FF "deadzone" is not good neither acceptable with thise price.

This is not to be confused with input deadzone because that is non existing and this makes the above even worse since every little movement is registred and converted into action :).

 

I hope they correct this in the software soon because I'm firmly convinced that it is possible to adjust this and that they have created this "zone" as a protection of the stick itself and trying to get the game manufacturers to cancel it out in the game itself.

 

It could be solved by implementing a background force immitating the machanical linkagage or hydraulics in the real plane. This force should be availiable to choose in the GUI and thus be on all the time centering the stick and small enough to be easily overridden by the game forces.

 

just an idea.

 

regards

They should probably just have a base "spring" adjustment that would feel much like a conventional stick. In games where they KNOW that FFB is in fact completely working, this would be disabled and handed off to the game, but otherwise you would just set the base spring force to whatever you prefer. This would make Black Shark fixed, and probably much more enjoyable.

[ericinexile]

They should probably just have a base "spring" adjustment that would feel much like a conventional stick. In games where they KNOW that FFB is in fact completely working, this would be disabled and handed off to the game, but otherwise you would just set the base spring force to whatever you prefer. This would make Black Shark fixed, and probably much more enjoyable.

 

 

I must say that while my orginal complaints stand, I do have the G940 setup to fly DCS extremely well and much better that my old Saitek or the trim-and-center method. This involves 25% sensitivity for X and Y in the Profiler. And in DCS:

 

a 6% positive curve in pitch and a manual Negative user curve in roll that gradually takes the stick (after 10%) to 100% on the slider before the end. I know that makes no sense when you read it but if you play with the DCS "Axis Tune" it should be clear. Flys wonderfully! (The G940 still sucks!)

[Spyros]

I've learned to NEVER shift a DPAD or POV switch or Windows will do horrible things never before seen in my 15 years of Microsoft slavery.

 

This sounds like the Blue screens I'm getting! At least now I know what's causing them. :)

 

Too bad I didn't find this thread before buying it, even though the stick is better than my Logitech Extreme 3D

[Dr_Evil]

I've learned to relegate the poor mini-stick to 4 zones for weapons selection because it is far too inaccurate to be used as a workable axis (Logitech learned this too--look at their own supplied DCS:Black Shark profile)

 

To be honest, part of the reason Logitech went with that setup is because of the way that Eagle coded the behavior of the TDC when it's bound to an axis. What Eagle coded is that a displacement of the Axis equals a displacement of the TDC, which, even with a very high-quality pot, is just difficult for a human to deal with. So, most of us decided to use the throttle sliders for the TDC. Trouble is, MOST potentiometers, unless you want to pay $50 each, plus $150 for a good power supply, will create the sort of inaccuracy that we all have seen when using the throttle sliders for the TDC.

 

Anyone play EECH? Anyone use the EECH Central mod package? Those guys coded it right. (With respect to the geniuses at Eagle) In that implementation, a displacement of the mini-stick equals a rate of movement of the TDC along that axis; i.e., the further you move the stick, the faster the TDC moves, and once you release the axis, the TDC stays where you put it, and in THAT implementation, the mini-stick works BEAUTIFULLY.

 

It all depends on how you use it, people. ;)

Edited January 2, 2010 by Dr_Evil

[ericinexile]

^^^^

 

About the R1 and R2 wheels. Since you seem very well-informed about the stick, do you know if the wild spikes with throttle movement are common or unique to my stick? I can't seem to get a reply from any users as to whether or not they also experience spiking. And if the spiking is common, is it driver correctable?

[Scarecrow]

My R1 and R2 aren't showing any spiking with throttle movement in controller properties, I would assume that there is some kind of fault with the throttle unit

[Pilotasso]

Mine are. The vertical one jumps all over the place.

 

It was fine out of the box but its getting worse every passing day.