Will there be actual ground troops to support? Will gun actually kick up dirt?

[kingneptune117]

It would be cool to do some REAL CAS. Im talking about like you fly out there, and you can see small arms fire, and maybe a few grenade explosions, coming from, lets say, the south and north side of the lake. You can actually see the humans on the ground (unlike in FC2 where it is nearly impossible.) Over the radio friendlies would yell "Keep your fire NORTH of the river!, with gun fire in the background of the radio). You look to the north of the river, see the targets, and engage with GAU-8 30mm cannon.

 

Also, will the GAU-8 actually kick up a fair amount of dirt, unlike in FC2? I hated that it didnt considering the bullets are the size of coke bottles. I really hope DCS doesnt have the silly looking tracer rounds like in FC2. That annoyed me a lot to. This is all my opinion of course.

[My Fing ID]

I certainly hope so. My biggest complaint with BlackShark is the ground AI, especially when it comes to infantry.

[kingneptune117]

I certainly hope so. My biggest complaint with BlackShark is the ground AI, especially when it comes to infantry.

 

 

I havent played blackshark, but I know in FC2 it was very hard to see infantry unless you were like .1 miles away. In the real A-10, it couldnt be THAT hard to see. In the game they look all pixelated, its not like that in real life. Maybe DCS can make better infantry models.

 

Wags already told us about the Awesome radio system they will have, so this new DCS is gonna be so sick. A-10C is my favorite aircraft besides the F-16C.

 

 

Wow, I just realized this. A DCS F-16C would be AMAZING. Perfectly modeled cockpit, flying 500 feet above the treetops at 500 knots...perfect.

[Coolhnd1]

I can't imagine they'd waste an asset like an A10C to come in to strafe a couple of guys that might be shooting at you. The possibility of friendly fire in that situation would just be too great. Now maybe if there's a large group of enemy soldiers and they are threatning to overrun a position..that might be different.

 

But yes, having it kick up dirt like in the demo video in another thread, that would be cool. I also happen to like however how the tracers look in FC2 now.

[EtherealN]

"Waste" an asset? Supporting the guy on the ground is the A10C's job description. And note that I didn't say "part of" - it's what the A10C does as a CAS aircraft. Interdiction, penetration, decapitation strikes and such jobs are handled by their own platforms, like the Strike Eagle or B1's, B2's etcetera.

 

So it wouldn't be "waste", it would be "doing it's job". ;)

[talisman]

To be honest - looking at youtube vids - A-10s are ofter called to the fight for "high value" targets and the like. If a patrol is under contact and risk being flanked - A-10s will be used to destroy compounds etc that contain just a few or unknown enemy numbers.

 

You ever tried to see a person - hiding in grass - on a hill side at 200 feet? I have flown helicopters in real life and at anything over 300 feet, even at 100knts people are difficult to see - and those are joe public on the street. I think most A-10 pilots will shoot at an area given to them without ever seeing an individual let alone shooting at a specific infantry member.

[Agg]

As EtherealN says, that is exactly what the A-10 does these days in Afghanistan and Iraq. Would be cool to have the gun kick up some dirt though :)

[EtherealN]

Correct, talisman. It is also useful to have two planes or more and the second guy will use the fire laid down by the first plane plus corrections given over radio by the unit on the ground as reference for his run. When ready to turn hot, you don't see any individuals - might not even see vehicles clearly if you don't have a pod - but use features for reference and said radio corrections to make your pass "count".

 

This is one of those things that often have simulator players feel very dissatisfied with rockets - they try to snipe individual vehicles or even personnel with them, and that's just not how it's done in real life.

 

Like talisman mentioned: a trained infantryman that has some terrain simply will not be seen unless he wants to - and unless there's IR-capable pods on the wing. But if the infantry he's fighting know where he is, they can tell the A10 pilot something like "300 feet west of the square building" and that's where death will land.

[Kaiza]

Anyone know if 30mm type/mix can be chosen?

[winz]

This is one of those things that often have simulator players feel very dissatisfied with rockets - they try to snipe individual vehicles or even personnel with them, and that's just not how it's done in real life.

I would also add, that this is also a point where mission designers tend to fail as well. You are often required to destroy everything on the ground to be sucessfull.

[EtherealN]

That is also a good point, yes.

[CAT_101st]

I would also add, that this is also a point where mission designers tend to fail as well. You are often required to destroy everything on the ground to be sucessfull.

 

I agree, I have asked once befor if they would add a % of target/groop destroyed for a success. If I had the option I would use it. I would also like to see the dirt being kicked up, would make spoting as the FO easer to call corrections to the second pilot.

[RichardG]

FAC Comms?

 

Are you including FAC comms in the sim? Foereward air controllers or observers that is.

[norm]

I can't imagine they'd waste an asset like an A10C to come in to strafe a couple of guys that might be shooting at you. The possibility of friendly fire in that situation would just be too great. Now maybe if there's a large group of enemy soldiers and they are threatning to overrun a position..that might be different.

 

But yes, having it kick up dirt like in the demo video in another thread, that would be cool. I also happen to like however how the tracers look in FC2 now.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szX45PdUOmo&feature=related

[SFJackBauer]

In the real A-10, it couldnt be THAT hard to see.

 

Yes, it can. I dont get why sitting on an A-10 should give you telescopic vision.

 

And I dont get how infantry looks "pixelated", or why it should be more detailed.

 

The interactions between air and ground were covered several days ago on a SimHQ interview

[element1108]

One of the TFC videos posted showed the a10 firing the cannon and there were no tracers, just smoke. And you could see the impact dirt being kicked up, no tracer deflections.

 

I don't tink FC 2 is any indication how the weapons will deploy in dcs A10C.

[kingneptune117]

"Waste an asset". When you are on the verge of being over run with bad guys who will gouge out your eyes with rusty spoons and your down to your last mag, trust me calling in a danger close mission is the best option your have. And as for being able to see them from the air, yes it's hard but that is what FO's and TACP are for or if they are dead, a smoke grenades. The A-10 drivers are very good at doing this and I was always happy to have them on my J-FIRE list. http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/doctrine/dod/t0302060.pdf Here is the list of DC for most CAS missions.

 

 

Table 12. Risk-Estimate Distances for

Aircraft Delivered Ordnance

Risk-Estimate

Distance (m)

Item Description

10%

PI

0.1%

PI

MK-82 LD 500-lb Bomb 250 425

MK-82 HD 500-lb Bomb (Retarded) 100 375

MK-82 LGB 500-lb Bomb (GBU-12) 250

1 4251

MK-83 HD/LD 1000-lb Bomb 275 475

MK-83 LGB 1000-lb Bomb (GBU-16) 275

1 4751

MK-84 HD/LD 2000-lb Bomb 325 500

MK-84 LGB 2000-lb Bomb (GBU-10/24) 225

1 500 1

MK-20

2 Rockeye (Antiarm or CBU) 150 225

MK-77 500-lb Napalm (FAE) 100 150

CBU-55/77 2 Fuel-Air Explosive (FAE) 1 1

CBU-52

2 CBUs (All Types) 275 450

CBU-58/71 2,3 CBUs (All Types) 350 525

CBU-87 2 CBUs (All Types) 175 275

CBU-89 3 CBUs (All Types) 175 275

2.75 FFAR Rocket with Various Warheads 160 200

5.00 FFAR Zuni with Various Warheads 150 200

SUU-11 7.62mm Mini-gun

M 4, M 12,

SUU-23,M 61 20mm Gattling Gun 100 150

GAU-12 25mm Gun 100 150

GPU-5A,

GAU-8 30mm Gattling Gun 100 150

AGM-65 4 Maverick (TV, IIR, Laser Guided) 25 100

MK-1/MK-21 Walleye II (1000-lb TV Guided

Bomb) 275 500

MK-5/MK-23 Walleye II (2400-lb TV Guided

Bomb 1 1

AGM-123A Skipper (1000-lb Laser Guided

Rocket-Booster Bomb)

275

1 5001

AC-130

5 20mm, 25mm, 40mm 35 125

105mm Cannon 80 200

 

 

 

not to be off topic, but I do not think the taliban would "gouge out your eyeballs". I have heard of them doing beheadings and the like, but I think that even they have SOME decency lol.

[Feuerfalke]

I havent played blackshark, but I know in FC2 it was very hard to see infantry unless you were like .1 miles away. In the real A-10, it couldnt be THAT hard to see. In the game they look all pixelated, its not like that in real life.

 

Couldn't disagree more.

 

In today's flight-simulators infantry is simulated by a rather bully guy, painted in dark greenish, standing on bright-green concrete. In BS you an see them from a mile away, depending on situation and lighting, but even in FC2 you see them much better than in real life because

 

1. the world is not made of green-painted concrete. It's grass, bushes and trees and even the desert has stones, rocks and dips in the sand infantry can hide in.

2. Don't expect to see an infantry-man in RL standing upright in the open field in a hostile environment. At least don't expect him to life long enough for you to spot him.

3. In RL the faster you go, the more blurred your peripheral vision is. Unless you know pretty exactly where you have to look and fly straight towards that location, spotting a human sized object is VERY hard for the human eye.

 

 

Long story short: If you can see enemy infantry from a low-flying plane at 300kts+ from 100m+ you know you are in a simulation. I can show you pictures of infantry in the field from 10m away and you won't see them after 5 seconds of searching. And imagine you have like .5 seconds to make them out and engage, before they move or hide. You can waste your whole ammo, if you don't have an FAC in the area to call in your strikes.

[Mercury]

Bullets, bombs and rockets kicking up dirt... lots and lots of dirt (Highly designed, fps friendly optimized dirt). Thats what I'm hoping to see in DCS A-10C. Especially in that Nevada terrain which is desert and have lots of dry sand laying around. Less dirt for Caucasus wouldn't be that much of an issue cause the ground is more wet and humid most of the time. Small details that make all the difference.

[nemises]

I'm sure, at worse, a user Mod could increase the amount of dust / dirt per impact to your personal requirement, but you must also think bigger picture.

 

ED will include as much detail as is required to their personal level of satisfaction ... if it doesn't happen to match yours, you must , perhaps accept that the decissions made by the developer are taken at a level beyond , and consider many many many things never even seen or heard of by the average (lets say 99%) of users.

 

I've no doubt, that the amount of detail ED obsess over and eventually poduce will be more than adequate to satisfy, but if you have special needs beyond, then go ahead and make a mod to adjust :)

[Shaman]

I think with FC2 all the kick-dust sprites were removed.

[Kaiza]

Apparently the load in FC2 is all AP rounds. I would assume we will be able to choose our round type and maybe even mix in DCS, so as long is there is HE, I would hope there would be some kind of effect when it hits the ground.

[CyBerkut]

Be careful what you wish for on dirt kicking up. If it is mostly hitting the GPU, that's one thing. If it is taxing the CPU (and we're pretty sure that isn't getting handed off to a separate core/thread), that might not be so spiffy for frame rates.

 

I'm sure E.D. will make good design decisions on it. If it can be done with adjustable realism settings for the depictions, to accomodate different CPU/GPU setups, even better!

[kingneptune117]

Couldn't disagree more.

 

In today's flight-simulators infantry is simulated by a rather bully guy, painted in dark greenish, standing on bright-green concrete. In BS you an see them from a mile away, depending on situation and lighting, but even in FC2 you see them much better than in real life because

 

1. the world is not made of green-painted concrete. It's grass, bushes and trees and even the desert has stones, rocks and dips in the sand infantry can hide in.

2. Don't expect to see an infantry-man in RL standing upright in the open field in a hostile environment. At least don't expect him to life long enough for you to spot him.

3. In RL the faster you go, the more blurred your peripheral vision is. Unless you know pretty exactly where you have to look and fly straight towards that location, spotting a human sized object is VERY hard for the human eye.

 

 

Long story short: If you can see enemy infantry from a low-flying plane at 300kts+ from 100m+ you know you are in a simulation. I can show you pictures of infantry in the field from 10m away and you won't see them after 5 seconds of searching. And imagine you have like .5 seconds to make them out and engage, before they move or hide. You can waste your whole ammo, if you don't have an FAC in the area to call in your strikes.

 

You need to take into consideration the fact that the infantry on the ground is moving around, popping in and out of cover, shooting their small arms, creating muzzle flash, as well as possibly throwing grenades, giving you an idea of the vicinity they are in. They are NOT stationary targets as they appear in FC2. Also, in FC2, with graphics turned high, you are correct, when they are in the middle of hundreds of trees, it is nearly impossible to spot them. In a place such as Afghanistan though, there are not to many trees and brush, mostly compounds of buildings to hide behind. Then again, the A-10C is used in more than just the middle east, so the argument can go both ways.

[GGTharos]

No, you don't really need to consider any of that.

The fact is that an A-10 pilot is very unlikely to see the infantry he's attacking. There's a bunch of descriptions of combat that show this to be true. Maybe in some rare cases they could see enemy troops, but by and large, fat chance. You're just shooting up some coordinate or a position relative to a smoke marker.