The beginners learning thread

[Teej]

IMHO it's not even fundamentally wrong, at least as regards the landing evolution.

 

If you have the nose pointed above the horizon, there's a wide range of power settings where the speed won't vary much. If the power is low, it will descend...at a given power setting it will fly level...and with more power it will climb, all without changing airspeed vary much. That is the condition you're in when you're landing.

 

Changing the attitude will alter the speeds necessary for the climb/level/descend process.

 

If you fall out of the power curve (speed too low to recover) or power out of it, then yes, you will escape from the region where "power controls altitude, pitch controls speed".

 

To think of it graphically...

 

If you fly with the nose at 0 attitude, you'll have to be going really fast to not lose altitude (and that's assuming you have flaps down and/or positive incidence in the wings. If the wings are 0 incidence and you have no flaps, you won't maintain altitude at any speed).

 

As you pull the nose up, the speed required to maintain a given glideslope drops...until you exceed the wing's max AOA and you stall. Thus every aircraft has a desired AOA for landing. If you're following the glideslope with your AOA too low, you will be "too fast" and you "slow down" by getting the nose up.

 

That's why I say "the speed will be what the speed will be". The "right" speed is whatever speed your plane wants to go with the proper AOA on a ~3 degree glideslope. Don't worry about the speed.

[aphelion79]

I'd be very worried about my speed if I was nearing VS0 so ignoring your speed is a very bad idea... however from the perspective you're providing I see exactly what you mean. If everything's right your approach speed will be what it needs to be. But I'd be cautious to say "don't worry about speed". =D

[Teej]

I'd be very worried about my speed if I was nearing VS0 so ignoring your speed is a very bad idea... however from the perspective you're providing I see exactly what you mean. If everything's right your approach speed will be what it needs to be. But I'd be cautious to say "don't worry about speed". =D

 

Yeah. If the FPM drops off the HUD, it's time to start worrying about your speed. :D

[chaos]

Fundamentally wrong, however practically correct. Have you ever tried slow flight and experienced flying "behind the curve"?

 

I have to disagree with this. I get what you're saying however, we're discussing operation within the normal flight-regime. Flying on the backside of the power curve does not fit that description.

 

... and getting dangerously close to stalling you press forward on the throttle only to find the throttle is already fire-walled.

 

You've let things get out of hand by that point. The only re-course at that point is decreasing pitch.

 

The backside of the powercurve is but a small percentage of the entire curve. You shouldn't be there in the first place. To add this to the question on "how to land" muddies the discussion needlessly.

Edited November 21, 2010 by chaos

[StrongHarm]

I prefer "stick to trimmer mode" (STT) which I use the mid thumb button on the throttle (X52pro profile) for. You push the button and pull back a little, you trim up a little, pull back a lot you trim up a lot. This is very similar to the KA50 trim. I originally had set my throttle trim radials for trim using the SST software, but it was flawed, so I switched to STT and found that I loved it. One important note is that with the pitch and roll in default sensitivity, STT is far too sensitive. I use axis settings 10/100/75/27 for both pitch and roll. I find that my trim is sweet and my A-10 is much easier to control.

 

I've never gotten trim to work. I end up constantly retrimming and overtrimming endlessly. Far more work than simply holding the stick where it needs to be. Black Shark's trim system was great. A-10C's is a nightmare.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Oh yeah...I'd also suggest a great way to "flare" is to just goose the power a bit. As you're crossing the threshhold, add enough power to make the flight path marker walk down the runway a bit...you're just trying to decrease sink rate a bit.

 

Hmmm. You should be reducing your power over the threshhold, not increasing it. Adding power is a recipe for an overly long ground roll.

[Dimebag1]

My suggestion is to just get comfortable enought flying normally in all conditions, and pick yourself up a copy of fc2 to get a feel for a SFM if your still having difficulties. Also, don't think so much about it, just focus on getting down in one piece and it will come to you eventually. once you have assimilated that muscle memory into your subconscious you will have no troubles. I'm sure your just overthinking it.

[dnme]

Thanks folks for all your replies and help. Overnight I managed to get an old copy of LOMAC off a cousin and then I purchased and downloaded FC2.

 

I read the manual but it's just awful. It's way way incomplete and totally inadequate. For example, how do I engage ILS in the a10? The manual does not cover that, nor do the training vids even though one of the titles would suggest so.

 

When I create a simple nav mission, and then fly it, my a10 does not seem to follow the way points or at least, does but only kinda. I'm creating take off, turning (or sometimes fly over) way points and ending with a landing way point. Taking off happily, than L ALT - 6 should get me into way point follow mode, it does but the plane seems to follow a course that makes no sense to me. I can cycle thru points (CTRL `) but end up having to take over. When I reach IAF, I see no ILS fix, nothing for ILS on HUD. The whole thing is utterly confusing and the manual just makes things worse cos all it does is disappoint.

 

Best flight sims in the world by far :thumbup:

Worst manuals in the world by far :helpsmilie:

 

Pease help me if you can. Just trying to learn simple NAV in the a10. BTW - I have already learned a lot. I am now comfortable with the 5 main NAV instruments and can NAV with head down etc, I am totally of-fey with HSI and ADI and understand how to make turns and correct course using these etc. All I need now is to understand using the a10's ILS and auto heading modes.

 

What I'd like to do successfully

1. Create a simple NAV mission taking off from an airport, navigating 6-7 waypoints at various altitudes, headings etc that go to make up a circle bringing me back to the airport for an ILS landing. Like I say, I can create the mission and fly it, but the aircraft seems to have a mind of its own and I cannot figure out how to engage ILS.

Edited November 22, 2010 by dnme

[Dimebag1]

If you press the 1 key to get into nav mode again, it will switch to Ils mode, then you have to intercept the localizer and the glideslope and localizer should appear on the HUD. Or when you intercept the final waypoint the ils should appear automatically and you will hear the tower talking.

[Teej]

Hmmm. You should be reducing your power over the threshhold, not increasing it. Adding power is a recipe for an overly long ground roll.

 

That was taken from J. Bill Dryden's "Semper Viper" articles on the F-16. (The guy who literally "wrote the book")

 

May not be the best way in the A-10, but in a jet that's not done flying yet (like the F-16) it's a superior means of flaring because the jet is all too easy to balloon up on you and waste lots more runway.

[MasterZelgadis]

@dnme: Correct me if I'm wrong... but there is no such thing like a waypoint-following-cross-arms-and-do-nothing-autopilot...

[dnme]

If you press the 1 key to get into nav mode again, it will switch to Ils mode, then you have to intercept the localizer and the glideslope and localizer should appear on the HUD. Or when you intercept the final waypoint the ils should appear automatically and you will hear the tower talking.

 

Dimebag1

I cannot seem to engage ILS mode. I line up with runways on visual, I press 1, ADI engages ILS as I can see the crosshairs on it, but my HUD does not. I get the R height scale along the right of the HUD but no cross hairs.

 

For the other posters, I am not trying to play the game with my arms folded. I have already spent a lot of time learning to fly by stick and land manually. Now I am simply trying to learn the different NAV modes in the a10 - that's all.

 

What am I doing wrong that I cannot get the ILS glide slope or localiser to show on the HUD?

[nomdeplume]

Never mind ... :)

[MasterZelgadis]

For the other posters, I am not trying to play the game with my arms folded. I have already spent a lot of time learning to fly by stick and land manually. Now I am simply trying to learn the different NAV modes in the a10 - that's all.

 

What am I doing wrong that I cannot get the ILS glide slope or localiser to show on the HUD?

 

That was no offense :huh:

[pyates2104]

This is actually quite interesting, and again makes me wonder what an experienced sim pilot could do in the real aircraft. I know, I know, we've had this discussion a million times, but I'll wager that almost all experienced sim pilots here jumped (or could have, RTFM notwithstanding :) ) into the A10 on the 1st install, and flew a circuit - I know I did. You only need your stick, throttle, rudder, F, shift F, and G - simple. Hell, I even managed to take the Blackshark off the deck and put it down without braking it on the first go, blind, and I'm sure there are guys here who are lightyears better than I am.

 

What I'm saying is the basic actions and thought processes are the same for a modern sim as they are for the real deal when it comes to just making it around the circuit in one piece. Sure, IRL you get ALL the theory in plenty of detail, and you get the basics done thoroughly - but when it comes to just making it succesfully around the pattern, you can get by on just the basics alone. And I fly real aircraft for a living, and have a couple of thousand hours of instruction IRL too - so, the OP has really got his/her hands full when jumping into such a complex sim. Respect. Persevere, and you'll get there. It's almost an unreasonable amount of stuff that you're supposed to know before you even lift off, so you really have your hands full if you're starting from scratch. We kind of take a lot of it for granted by now.

 

Someday I'm going to chuck an experienced sim pilot into a 172 and see what happens if I tell them 'its all yours' pre-taxi. I'll give them a little briefing on stick forces and controls, but thats it. Should be worth a lol or two. :)

 

It's already been done, UK Channel 5, the gadget show. One of the presenters with 2 months experience on X-Plane had to take off and land in a 172. The instructor was there as a safety pilot but gave no control inputs.

[GGTharos]

Neither the A-10 or F-15 have ILS bars on the HUD in RL. It is a mis-representation in LO/FC, and if you can't get it to work it may have been deliberately removed. The ILS instrument you're meant to use is the ADI and HSI.

[Frederf]

Tharos, the ADI lateral yellow bar seems really bank sensitive. Is this normal or something that's still being worked on? Should I be able to use the lateral bar for ILS lateral steering?

[Dimebag1]

Dimebag1

I cannot seem to engage ILS mode. I line up with runways on visual, I press 1, ADI engages ILS as I can see the crosshairs on it, but my HUD does not. I get the R height scale along the right of the HUD but no cross hairs.

 

For the other posters, I am not trying to play the game with my arms folded. I have already spent a lot of time learning to fly by stick and land manually. Now I am simply trying to learn the different NAV modes in the a10 - that's all.

 

What am I doing wrong that I cannot get the ILS glide slope or localiser to show on the HUD?

 

Sounds like you may not have intercepted the ils waypoint, as once you do this you wil get HUD ils indicators but if you don't all you get is markers directing you to the waypoint. Are you lined up with the runway at this stage? If not you won't see anything. Just follow the waypoints back to the runway (if you have set it up correctly, did you add a land waypoint?) and you should see the bars.

 

I'm not sure what you will see in fc2 tho, I'm playing fc1.12, and as Tharos says it may have been removed from the HUD in fc2.

[StrongHarm]

I'd love to see a realistic training syllabus as well, but I don't think it would be worth EDs time to produce. There are too many people that won't read the existing manual that is simple and well written. Go to a multiplayer server and you should only have to wait for a few minutes to see "what's the key for the landing gear", or just look at these forums: "how do I drop a bomb".

 

I can tell you that the real manuals and training plans are written by engineers, not teachers. I'd say an extended training plan would have maybe a 5% audience. According to this poll, only 29% actually read the current manual.

 

If someone can share/make available training syllabus based on the real A-10C then we may be able to adopt the same.

 

It will ensure that we follow the same regime as that of the real A-10C flier, which would be so much better for such a hi-fidelity sim as the A-10C

 

Manish

[Bucic]

Just like the Earth's disc lies on 4 elephants the learning of a high fidelity sim like DCS lies on the following fundamentals - RTFM, forums, willing to learn and practice. Here's my Effective rookie introduction for DCS BS, WIP. Perhaps it may give someone some ideas to Warthog newcomers too.

 

 

Go to a multiplayer server and you should only have to wait for a few minutes to see "what's the key for the landing gear", or just look at these forums: "how do I drop a bomb".

Well, the least we can do... is not to waste time on them. ;)

Plus one of these http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1008013#post1008013 :D

[dnme]

So you guys reckon the HUD ILS is removed from FC2 eh?

Jesus wouldn't it be nice if that was mentioned in the dam useless manual. What a waste of time. But hang on, how come I'm not getting any radio comms such as "you are below glide slope" ???

Edited November 23, 2010 by dnme

[dnme]

OK I need to take this 1 step at a time because I have now uninstalled FC2/Lomac and re-installed LOMAC alone. With LOMAC, I applied the patch and tried to get ILS going. Could not!

 

So folks, ca I ask the following

1. How do you get the a10 into ILS mode?

2. Do you need to be in an autopilot mode first? (say path hold? or alt hold?)

3. Let's say I'm approaching an airport, I line up with runway, about 6-8km out, I bring her down to around 2000 feet, 190KIAS on a heading in line with runway. I am in manual flight mode just using stick and instruments. How do I now engage ILS - take me through the basic key combinations.

 

Many thanks for any help

[Ripcord]

RTFM is paramount, nobody here will argue. This sim takes RTFM to a new level. It really does remind a guy of a NATOPS manual.

 

I will say that, because this whole sim thing is supposed to be fun, at the end of the day, there needs to be some 'fun' mixed in, even if that is just experimenting and the age old classic - take off and blow stuff up. Gotta walk before you can run. Take off, navigate, land, learns comms, learn systems.... the best way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time. I am for any method that enables that approach, along with making this fun.

 

Ripcord

[26-J39]

According to this poll, only 29% actually read the current manual.

 

Oh please, do you work for the government? Distorting things..

- 29 % have read the WHOLE manual before first flight.

 

- 7% hate reading manuals.

 

- Therefore 93% actually read/refer the manual.

[Sarge55]

Oh please, do you work for the government? Distorting things..

- 29 % have read the WHOLE manual before first flight.

 

- 7% hate reading manuals.

 

- Therefore 93% actually read/refer the manual.

 

:megalol: