SA15 shot my Maverick out of the sky!!

[WarriorX]

I felt compelled to share a great moment I just had in the Hog. I just keep on finding things in this Sim that make me smile and this was one of those times.

 

I was flying Grimes "On Station" Single Player Mission, and was tasked to take out a Surface to Air Threat. I got the target coordinates from the AWACS and put them in my CDU and was on my way to earn my combat pay.

 

Around 12NM from my steerpoint I find a group of 5 vehicles and start checking them with my TGP. I think one fits the profile of a SA9, so I begin working to put a AGM 65 D on it.

 

Just as I pickle off the Maverick, I get a warning tone on my RWR and find a 15 with a circle around it and I immediately know I have a problem.

 

The spike from the SA15 is not coming from the vehicle group that I am currently engaging..."shit...where the hell is he?" so I break to put him on my beam and put my head on a swivel....looking.....looking, my wing calls mud spike...and I'm thinking "Yeah I already know that" and then I see the first launch trail and the warning klaxons are sounding but he is not tracking me, so it must be my wingie..We both break and dump chaff and extend away from the engagement envelope....Thank God for the TrackIr, as I am able to keep a "general fix" on where that SOB is.

 

The missile from the SA15 misses my wingie and I am already turning and re-centering the Maverick seeker head and bring it on to the area I believe the SA15 is.

 

By the time I find him I am roughly 8.5 NM from him and luckily I get a lock on him at 6.9NM. "Eat this" I say under my breath, and off the rails she flies!

 

I break left and turn to enjoy the show out my right window and to my surprise the SA15 launches another missile, and then another, and then it happened.

 

The first of the salvo of two missiles drills right into my Maverick while it is two thirds of the way to its target. I cant believe my eyes, but I just watched it happen! The Maverick is no more, and the second missile is tracking me!

 

I tried to jink and evade, extend, but the math was not there, and the jammer was not burning him out...the 2nd SA15 missile exploded just aft of my right engine nacelle and that was all she wrote for me...I radio'd my wingie to engage that SA15 with missile and after I hit the last F1 the game crashed to desktop.

 

I wish I had the track to show you guys but nevertheless, it was a great moment that Im sure I will be having many more of in the future. Thank you Grimes for the great mission, THANK YOU DCS!!!! :thumbup:

[walker450]

Awesome!

[Hekktor]

Funny that you just wrote that. Since I myself had a similar experience 10min ago, when I set up a simple Mission to check out russian air def units. In my case I simply put singe Tunguska on the map with me and a wingie engaging it. He took out my 1st mav with its 30mm! So i gave him another 2 fired as fast as i was able to lock him, this time my third mav got him. Tough nut for a single steady ground unit. Hard chances for A-10s on moving groups of SA-15s...

[Bulletstop]

Outstanding... I truly am amazed with this sim. Great AAR also.

 

 

 

Bullet

[SkipCarey]

Nice specs warrior, what speed does the mav travel at?mach 1.5?seems kinda far fetched that a sam could kill something so fast and small any real world info on this?not that Im doubting ya just wonderin if its realistic sounds cool though...........

[nomdeplume]

Nice specs warrior, what speed does the mav travel at?mach 1.5?seems kinda far fetched that a sam could kill something so fast and small any real world info on this?not that Im doubting ya just wonderin if its realistic sounds cool though...........

 

If you've got external views enabled, hit F6 after you fire a Maverick to watch it. You can also see its speed in the status bar at the bottom.

 

According to Wikipedia, it's speed is Mach 0.93 - but that would only be its maximum speed, and its engine doesn't burn for all that long. When it's coasting to the target it's traveling much slower.

[OutOnTheOP]

Personally, I am ANNOYED beyond belief at this SAM behavior.

 

Now, I can understand a late generation radar-guided SAM (be it active, SARH, or radar/ command-guided) hitting a Maverick in a frontal, no-lateral-motion engagement.

 

HOWEVER, my first experience with SAMs shooting down my Mavericks was an SA3. And it wasn't even the SA3 I was shooting at- I was shooting at the tracking radar of one site, and the missile was hit by an SA3 fired from a SECOND site, about 8 km away, with a 90 degree crossing angle, during an engagement window of perhaps 20 seconds (I had fired during a quick pop-up engagement at around 3 nm after acquiring the TR with my TGP from 20nm, then terrain-following flight in to engagement range).

 

I'm sorry, but I just don't think SA3 is THAT capable. Granted, Mavericks aren't terribly fast; right below mach 1- but still... a high-angle crossing shot with a low acquisition-to-hit time at an almost NOE target?

[159th_Falcon]

Don't forget, still beta. A lot of things need tweaking and this might just be one of em.

[nomdeplume]

Hmm I've never seen them engage from that far out, and I'd be very interested in commentary from people who know more about the capabilities of SAMs.

 

I would think though that the Maverick wouldn't be all that difficult to engage, assuming one can track it (and it's not huge, but it's no small missile, either). It travels in a very predictable path - once its motor burns out it pretty much goes in a straight line to its target with a gradually decreasing velocity.

 

If a SAM is able to track and destroy a maneuvering fighter jet, then killing a non-maneuvering missile doesn't seem out of the question.

 

I don't have time to any real research, but wikipedia suggests the SA-3 is actually designed for short-range, low-altitude engagements: The intercept altitudes are between 100 m and 18 km.

[SkipCarey]

I still doubt its possible in the real world but if anyone with accurate real world knowledge please chime in.........

 

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[WarriorX]

Nice specs warrior, what speed does the mav travel at?mach 1.5?seems kinda far fetched that a sam could kill something so fast and small any real world info on this?not that Im doubting ya just wonderin if its realistic sounds cool though...........

 

Thanks Skip, man I hear ya, if I had not seen it myself, I would not have believed it. It was truly jaw dropping.

[WarriorX]

I just did a quick Google search for the SA 15 Gauntlet. Please read the first paragraph regarding the capabilities at Global Security.org

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/sa-15.htm

 

And a 2nd confirmation here: http://defense-update.com/products/t/tor.htm

Edited December 16, 2010 by WarriorX

[Grimes]

Glad you have been enjoying the mission. It's gonna receive some nice updates soon. On the topic of Tors... They are nasty buggers. Although I'd say its harder to take em out with the A-10A from FC2 than with the A-10C in DCS. Simply because once we have acquired the target in the TGP we can go defensive as much as needed and still have its location at nearly pin-point accuracy. Even so, that specific Tor has taken out my wingman several times. Its all to easy to get to close while it is fixated on your buddy only for it to switch to you well within its kill range. I think the current d-sync and stability of Beta 3 online has probably saved myself from being hit at least a few times.

[Teej]

Anyone managed to take out their wingman with a HARM yet?

[nomdeplume]

Anyone managed to take out their wingman with a HARM yet?

 

Maybe I'm being dense, but wouldn't that require being able to fire HARMs? :)

[sobek]

Anyone managed to take out their wingman with a HARM yet?

 

Are you conducting a search for aragorn? :)

[Kula66]

I've had Tunguskas take down Mavs, even when 2 fired in quick succession ... but a LGB from 15,000, no more bad guy :)

 

Although with a higher engagement ceiling, 15s will be much more tricky!

Edited December 16, 2010 by Kula66

[Dmut]

SA3 shooting down Mavs is a bug, and it will be fixed.

[OutOnTheOP]

regarding the SA3 engagement, yes, it's designed as a low altitude system, but it's still an early-generation missile with relatively limited low-altitude capabilities.

 

And it's not the missile I'm taking exception to as much as the radar system. I'm not entirely certain the Low Blow tracking radar will give a solid track against a target that small at 8km; certainly not fast enough to get a solid intercept solution and get a missile off in time.

 

The SA15 I can believe- at least in engagements at 3-5 km against missiles or bombs with low crossing angles. SA3, not so much.

Edited December 16, 2010 by OutOnTheOP

[Succellus]

Alowing myself to enter the discussion, i dont know why a LGB would hit the SAM if it s able to kill a maverick.

And since a maverick is less than a Vulture in cross section, wouldn t those sam being shooting birds then, or some poor skydiver ?

Ed team already sayd its a bug, but even then. I also agree that shooting some thing that cross your vector laterally over 200 km/h is only for shotguns like featured weapons.

[Gearbox]

Alowing myself to enter the discussion, i dont know why a LGB would hit the SAM if it s able to kill a maverick.

And since a maverick is less than a Vulture in cross section, wouldn t those sam being shooting birds then, or some poor skydiver ?

Ed team already sayd its a bug, but even then. I also agree that shooting some thing that cross your vector laterally over 200 km/h is only for shotguns like featured weapons.

 

Well, the LGB is falling much more straight down on top of the thing, and I don't think it has radar coverage there.

 

Regarding engaging birds, I imagine the on-board software filters targets based on speed and other parameters.

[Succellus]

Well, the LGB is falling much more straight down on top of the thing, and I don't think it has radar coverage there.

 

Regarding engaging birds, I imagine the on-board software filters targets based on speed and other parameters.

 

Yes, about birds and skydiver, i was partially joking.

About the LGB i doubt you climbed 10K+ inverted and dropped the bomb straight over the head of the TOR in a stucka fashion.

So i assume you where quite far and the system would have the time to do the calc and counter launch exactly the same way you would have launshed a maverick being nearer the SAM.

[EtherealN]

Succellus, you don't have to climb "inverted" or anything of the sort.

 

All you need to do is either climb above it's coverage, or get above 64 degrees elevation. When you are at more than 64 degrees of elevation to the TOR, you are outside of his radar coverage. You are 100% invisible. Therefore - your LGB is also invisible. You don't even have to drop it on top of him.

 

Mavs and other similar missiles are usually launched at much lesser elevation (vis a vis the Tor) than LGB's. Hence: the Tor can see them, and can engage them.

 

Incidentally, this is part of the reason why you don't want to deploy this kind of system in a deep valley. They'll be practically useless and an easy target for anything airborne.

Edited December 16, 2010 by EtherealN
My spelling is made of fail

[GGTharos]

Tor should be shooting bombs out of the sky as well.

 

However air defense batteries are typically assigned a search and attack zone which they can comfortably handle, and someone dropping LGBs might easily be flying outside of that sector. Unfortunately there is no complex radar or IADS simulation to take care of all of this.

[mavyalex]

Realistic SAM simulator: http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home