Refueling - precision flying

[JCook]

Starting to work on refueling skills. I seem to be swaying left and right quite a bit when I get close to the tanker.

 

I know this is largely a personal preference but what settings for the TM WartHog HOTAS would you guys recommend for Pitch, Roll and Yaw for the best performance when refuelling?

 

Currently I have:

Pitch / Roll Yaw

Deadzone = 10 10

Saturation = 50 60

Y Curve = 50 60

X Curve = 50 60

 

Any changes to make for throttle sensitivity? Any Trim changes?

 

Thanks

[Svend_Dellepude]

reset your profile for the stick and choose a deadzone of 0 or 1 and curve between 10-20.

i have a small deadzone of 5 and a curve of 20 for my pedals. (CH pedals)

 

it works quite good for me.

the thing is that the A-10 is a living bird so you have to be able to make small but quick corrections and with a deadzone of 10 i would say that it's nearly impossible.

[RobC]

The most useful thing I did for refueling was actually adjusting my throttle. Older x45 (it still works and I like it, leave me alone :P ), but basically like many it has a "bump" near the 90% mark where normally the AB would engage.

 

This was sort of an issue since a lot of the time that bump was getting in the way when making constant throttle changes trying to refuel, so basically what I did was set my Saitek software so that the 90% "bump" was equal to 100% in game throttle, and I could mess around below that without having to deal with that.

 

Not really exactly what you asked for, but hope that helps anyway. ;)

 

e: For trim I like to set myself to the tanker speed, get it about even and then add maybe a couple clicks of nose down trim. I find that keeping the slight back pressure on my stick while refueling actually makes it a bit easier for me, and I am less likely to run into the tanker. Again, your mileage may vary.

Edited March 5, 2012 by RobC

[Smokin Hole]

I agree with Rob about slight nose down trim (nose up works too). But only slight. You should still be able to take your hand off the stick for brief periods with no ill effects. If you can't, trim more. I recommend removing all curves at first. Sometimes too much curve and deadzone makes you fly less precisely. Once you can fly with precision (but perhaps a little twitchy) you can add curve and deadzone to suit your style and dampen the twitch. Another thing to consider when you are on the tanker: keep your feet on the floor.

[spikenet]

I personally prefer setting stick sensitivity using Target. That way I can have normal sensitivity then switch it for refueling / precision formations etc.

 

There is no limit to the range of setting using target unlike setting it "in sim"

 

The problem with setting a curve for the throttle is it gets very sensitive away from centre so you probably need to use the brake alot more to stay in the sweet spot.

[ralfidude]

I never understood dead zones... I just curve it to 30, and i can work it just fine.

[Tailgate]

Deadzones are used for non-precision "noisy" sticks that bob around the centerpoint.

[sobek]

I know this is largely a personal preference but what settings for the TM WartHog HOTAS would you guys recommend for Pitch, Roll and Yaw for the best performance when refuelling?

 

I use the default linear input-output behaviour, except on my saitek rudders, because they are way too sensitive around the center. I have a curvature of about 20-30 on them.

 

It probably takes a little more practice to not overcontrol and you also need to be able to trim well, but overall it works like a charm for me.

[ralfidude]

Yet people still use dead zones in sticks like the warthog thursmaster... which makes no sense to me, is what i meant. But yeah...

[july865]

dead zones can be useful even on the TM. as an example, your arms weight, when placed on the stick, will naturally exert force on the JS and tend to pull back and to the right (right-handed) on the stick (depending on JS position). and the opposite for lefties.

this applies to all extremities.

this also could be useful on the extremely sensitive sticks (digital), to elevate unwanted movement when your hands are manipulating the individual controls on the JS.

[Depth]

dead zones can be useful even on the TM. as an example, your arms weight, when placed on the stick, will naturally exert force on the JS and tend to pull back and to the right (right-handed) on the stick (depending on JS position). and the opposite for lefties.

this applies to all extremities.

this also could be useful on the extremely sensitive sticks (digital), to elevate unwanted movement when your hands are manipulating the individual controls on the JS.

I found that a tiny tiny deadzone on the throttle helped avoid the plane moving during startup

[Druid_]

For precision flying you need instantaneous feedback. Any deadzones on stick will inhibit the process. As for rudder pedals, get your feet off them when formation flying/Tanking !!

 

The secret to tanking is to get the aircraft trimmed to the tankers speed & practice. Correct positioning behind also helps as the boom has limited movement. Hit the higher or lower limit and the boom operator will 'Disconnect'.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Druid_
crap spelling

[Kalahari]

Been trying 5 months,no cigar. Maybe will just refuel on the ground :)

[badger66]

I dont see an issue if difficulty could be included in the options , then you can choose yourself , much like easy radio assist . There couldnt possibily be any disagreements with that ?

 

Or could there ?

[july865]

@druid

although i agree with your theory, if there is anyone/group that knows about precision flying, it would be the virtual blue angels and the patriots.

i would deffer to them and ask if they use dead zones and or curves. and i would bet that most do.

edit:

also as for AAR, DCS places a zone around the tanker which reduces JS sensitivity. it has been discussed on here before.

Edited March 5, 2012 by july865

[Druid_]

@july865

I have done plenty of precision flying IRL and I can assure you there were no deadzones or curves. Adding curves will make your stick less sensitive and will help those who overcontrol (i.e. PIO). It is a short term solution imho as if left it will be at the expense of feel when aircraft speed is varying considerably. As for deadzones, plain stupid imho unless you have a dodgy stick.

[sobek]

also as for AAR, DCS places a zone around the tanker which reduces JS sensitivity. it has been discussed on here before.

 

No it does not, damnit. :D

 

Opening the refueling hatch deactivates EAC, that is all that is happening.

[sorcer3r]

For successful refueling I had to add curves for my saitek x45 stick (old & intractable) and I also had to trim the A10C a lot before contact.

 

But now for my fighterstick I do not need any curves and I also do not need perfect trimming before the tanker contact.

(For me, AAR is much easier than formation flying)

 

So i guess it depends on your stick you use whether you need curves or not.

[july865]

sobek

you would know better than i about the programming, but i swore that i had read on the forums that it was acknowledged there was. my bad.

druid. we are referring to virtual flying.

i have never done precision flying for real. i bet it was a blast when you did it. i'de be nervous as hell and white knuckled.

question:

is there any hydraulic "proportioning valve" in the flight controls system? if there is, could that be considered as dampening your JS curves??

[Druid_]

Some aircraft do adjust 'feel' by controlling the hydraulic flight control actuators. This is common place in fly-by-wire aircraft and is done according to aircraft configuration and speed. There is no such system on the A10c as far as I know but if there was it would be based purely on changes in aircraft speed and in no way would resemble fixed joystick curves.

[PeterP]

No it does not, damnit. :D

 

Opening the refueling hatch deactivates EAC, that is all that is happening.

 

Sobek is right!

 

sobek

but i swore that i had read on the forums that it was acknowledged there was.

 

Maybe you are referring to my un-reflected brambling I have done in this very similar thread last Saturday night -:P;)

>>http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1410967#post1410967

 

 

Some aircraft do adjust 'feel' by controlling the hydraulic flight control actuators. This is common place in fly-by-wire aircraft and is done according to aircraft configuration and speed. There is no such system on the A10c as far as I know but if there was it would be based purely on changes in aircraft speed and in no way would resemble fixed joystick curves.

 

The A-10 does this also but you need a FFB controller to see how it works (as long the FFB modeling is done right by YoYo & Co -but I really trust them). - and you won't notice this on a normal stick.

See this posting for more detail:http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1411223#post1411223

 

And it is really a bad decision to put a dead-zone on a perfectly precise stick with Hall-sensors like the TM-Warthog/X52.

Even if the axis output changes when putting the weight of your arm on it - Than you have to move the stick to somewhere else where you can rest your arm on the elbow.

A) build a arm-rest

B) use a center stick mount and you will automatically use your lap to rest your arm.

-so you are really relaxed when have to do small adjustments.

A extended stick will also higher your precision to small adjustments a lot.

 

Edit: So you can discuss how much you want about what curve settings/dead-zone is right.This will be only a picture of a personal preference...

Fact is that the modelling of the axis input is done with the real A-10 stick dimensions in mind .- And this is very much out of scope what you have usually at home...

 

You have to keep in mind that you have to move the real one about 2cm/0.79inch to deflect it 1°. - you can't do it with a normal stick. - you will need all the precision you can get to overcome this discrepancy of your controls to the real one...

 

Can you Imagine how fine adjustments will get really easy to do when you have something like this between your legs ?! :)

 

That's why we have the curve settings in a simulator!- Yes it helps, but it isn't a solution without flaws, it will only be a compromise... - I never seen a pilot asking where to put in his preferred axis curves when climbing in a cockpit... ;)

 

So please feel free to modify you pitch curve using this guide line:

 

keep in mind this setting is only a example (and I admit that it is really extreme) -and you have to find your own "sweet spot"

 

 

Add a dead-zone only if you have spiking potis. - and much better: exchange them.

Edited March 5, 2012 by PeterP

[sobek]

and much better: exchange them.

 

Even better, replace them with something else than 1950ies technology, namely, hall sensors. :)

[JCook]

Thanks - I've made the changes you suggested. The Hog definitely feels different now and I can even take my hand off the stick for a few seconds when I'm trailing the tanker. Stability seems fine while a couble hundred feet behind the tanker - I can hang there without much trouble - getting up close to the probe I start to porpoise like crazy.

 

Do you have the definitions for saturation and curve - I think I know what deadzone is.

 

Thanks.

[RobC]

Sobek is right!

 

 

 

Maybe you are referring to my un-reflected brambling I have done in this very similar thread last Saturday night -:P;)

>>http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1410967#post1410967

 

 

 

 

The A-10 does this also but you need a FFB controller to see how it works (as long the FFB modeling is done right by YoYo & Co -but I really trust them). - and you won't notice this on a normal stick.

See this posting for more detail:http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1411223#post1411223

 

And it is really a bad decision to put a dead-zone on a perfectly precise stick with Hall-sensors like the TM-Warthog/X52.

Even if the axis output changes when putting the weight of your arm on it - Than you have to move the stick to somewhere else where you can rest your arm on the elbow.

A) build a arm-rest

B) use a center stick mount and you will automatically use your lap to rest your arm.

-so you are really relaxed when have to do small adjustments.

A extended stick will also higher your precision to small adjustments a lot.

 

Edit: So you can discuss how much you want about what curve settings/dead-zone is right.This will be only a picture of a personal preference...

Fact is that the modelling of the axis input is done with the real A-10 stick dimensions in mind .- And this is very much out of scope what you have usually at home...

 

You have to keep in mind that you have to move the real one about 2cm/0.79inch to deflect it 1°. - you can't do it with a normal stick. - you will need all the precision you can get to overcome this discrepancy of your controls to the real one...

 

Can you Imagine how fine adjustments will get really easy to do when you have something like this between your legs ?! :)

 

That's why we have the curve settings in a simulator!- Yes it helps, but it isn't a solution without flaws, it will only be a compromise... - I never seen a pilot asking where to put in his preferred axis curves when climbing in a cockpit... ;)

 

So please feel free to modify you pitch curve using this guide line:

 

keep in mind this setting is only a example (and I admit that it is really extreme) -and you have to find your own "sweet spot"

 

 

Add a dead-zone only if you have spiking potis. - and much better: exchange them.

 

I was going to mention this as well, glad you did first. In a real a-10 the stick is attached to a much longer lever then it is with any PC joystick (TM Warthog included).

 

Even if the simulation is 100% accurate in making sure that 5 degrees of movement in the real jet is the same as 5 degrees in the sim, you need to take into consideration that the stick movement required to register those 5 degrees is a lot different.

 

The solution is either to mount your stick on the floor and spend a silly amount of money extending it by two feet, or to use a bit of curve in order to compensate.

[Sarge55]

And, I would say don't be afraid to try bold setting changes at first and then tweak up or down. I tried a curvature of 40 for pitch and roll and that worked great for getting started on AAR.

 

I've since tweaked it back from there as I've improved from practice. But to be honest the plane flew great for missions as well, quite smooth as I tend to be a bit hard on the stick. (No RL pilot experience just a simmer...)