Red Tails Movie - Crazy ass cobra/upswing manouvre?!?!?

[EtherealN]

At least I'd like to believe that because it's called The "History" channel. History is never subjective. There's only one truth.

 

You give the UFO/Ghost/Mayan Calendar channel too much credit, unfortunately.

 

They're not alone in the fall, of course. I don't know of any channel that hasn't gone the way of being "entertainment"-focused in order to keep ratings. Hell, even our state-funded ("public service") channels do that, at the expense of more serious programming.

 

Go to the history channel's website and check out the TV shows they make. Then cry. That's what I do. :(

Edited May 13, 2012 by EtherealN

[ErichVon]

It was a rethorical question. I know it's History Channel. That is my point.

 

You do not go to the History Channel for factual accuracy. Sadly those days are gone. Nowadays you go there for "reality" shows about roughneck loggers, various UFO crap etcetera. They're not in this for accuracy, they, like most other TV stations, are here to offer entertainment for old Joe Regular.

 

It's unfortunate, but that's the way it is.

 

Yep, those days are gone.

 

I pay for private cable to watch a lot of commercials. I watch 4 TV shows series, all week, and the occasional movie. I am usually doing DCS or similar when I cannot sleep. The only reason we have cable TV is my wife's stupid, NASCAR addiction. Which she retaliates with my stupid Internet flight sims addiction. She is absolutely correct, ughhhhhh---as always!

 

I knew a guy, retired from Raytheon. He told me of his career with them and we talked pleasantly for hours. He refitted decommissioned US Navy ships to 2nd and 3rd world countries with various electronic gear from Raytheon. Since to my local public library, they have all the UFO/paranormal crap next to the computer section it is pretty hard not to resist picking up some of the UFO stuff to read it. I know quite a bit about The Philadelphia Experiment, read the book, saw the movie---I figured it was BS. UNTIL I met Joe! It came to mind while we were talking that Raytheon was involved in The Philadelphia Experiment. So, I asked Joe, "what you know?" Man, he got agitated, hostile, he NEVER heard of it and that ended our polite conversation. NOW? I'm a true believer!! That stuff is still Classified Top Secret. Wish I could have gone to M.I.T. or Princeton, what some of those professors must know.

 

History is relative. There IS what actually happened. Then there are stories by different people who were there, but as they experienced it. Just like a crime scene and the police getting different stories from different people. I get a kick having lived life long enough in the USA to see how our USA leadership has really acted, but only Cable Span or BBC News to get maybe an unbiased look at the true events like Morrow reported on CBS News TV in the 1950's. Then read their autobiographies and how they turn the "truth" around.

 

Yeah, 1st semester college: What is truth? LOL!

 

Whose truth?

[EtherealN]

Man, he got agitated, hostile, he NEVER heard of it and that ended our polite conversation. NOW? I'm a true believer!!

 

You need a higher standard of evidence. That statement could be taken out of a History Channel UFO show where someone had talked to someone... There's many reasons to be agitated and hostile - for example having very little patience for that kind of stuff. I know how I reacted the first time I heard people talk about chemtrails, and my reaction could easily have caused the person I was talking to to go "there's this pilot acquaintance I know, and when I mentioned chemtrails..." :)

 

Anyways, now that we've all agreed the History Channel doesn't even try to be accurate (not that the Red Tails movie tries either, of course), let's continue with the actual topic. :)

[ErichVon]

You need a higher standard of evidence.

." :)

 

Anyways, now that we've all agreed the History Channel doesn't even try to be accurate (not that the Red Tails movie tries either, of course), let's continue with the actual topic. :)

 

-------------snipped it some-------------

 

1st sentence: that would be impossible if it is classified.

 

2nd sentence: OK

[macedk]

1. can the plane do the move

I think so but its going to slow as hell and not controllable. They guy behind is going to get ya :)

2. Get in game and get going and post resuslts :)

[WildBillKelsoe]

Guys, it is possible in the horizontal, and not up..

 

ERR... maybe not..

[ErichVon]

Great move. I doubt the accuracy of that video animating that move exactly as shown. But come on, that was a lucky shot.

 

Ditto, the guy from I think was from Louisiana, during WWII, doing a side slip in his Wildcat downing a Zero and getting The Medal of Honor for it.

 

I have tried similar moves in both sims and granted the overshoot does happen, I question the modeling of the sims' guns. DCS, though is still a WIP.

 

Out of the book, "In Pursuit" by Johan Kylander that move looks like "The Sliceback" page 124 and 125 of my book.

 

Page 93 here:

 

http://pilotpress.wordpress.com/in-pursuit/

 

Free .pdf of the book.

Edited May 14, 2012 by ErichVon

[muamshai]

Things I learned after watching Red Tails (2012):

 

1. Germans are not smart, you're leading the enemy back to your base and don't think about radioing ahead to warn them.

2. The enemy is more polite then your own countrymen, they refer to the Red tails as 'Africans' and your own use the n-word.

3. Escaping from a German POW camp looks really easy.

4. A good way to pickup Italian women is to do a flyover of her house and then show up at her doorstep.

5. When you design an airfield in a combat zone, make sure you place the buildings and tents within 20 feet of the runway sides and put the largest concentration at the end of the runway.

6. When you yank back on the stick and kick the rudder hard at 400+ km/h your plane will stop and pirouette in mid-air and your guns will align up perfectly on the enemy on your six.

7. Me-262s always attacked in packs of 20 or so.

8. When you are escorting bombers to the enemy's capital it is no big deal to chatter incessantly on the radios and even talk about where you are going and where you are.

9. Me-262's sound like Tie Fighters from Star Wars.

10. Making a head-on pass at an Me-262's cannons is a smart tactical move.

11. German warships sailed alone in broad daylight right near an American air base.

12. Despite being 180+ km/h faster, German jets are cupcakes when facing the Red Tails.

13. Me-262's cannons are only strong enough to plink aircraft hulls and put small holes into the canopy.

14. .50 cal machine guns on B17s sounded like that of a twin turbo laser.

15. When your best friend dies during aerial combat and you see his plane crash to the ground, you woodenly say "Damn!" like you just dropped your slice of pizza.

16. Fighters are now required to fly in between the bombers to protect them.

17. Momma doesn't care if the foreigner you let in your home soils your couch with your daughter in a premarital romp that would create a shotgun wedding back home.

18. German 30mm rounds made 8mm bullet holes.

19. German prison guards are horrible shots.

20. American bomber pilots all wear leather jackets with a big picture of a B17 on the back like a high school letterman's jacket.

21. The Germans only used 109s, skipped 190s, and went straight to a whole lone squadron of Me-262s.

22. Italian women say, "I love you" first in the relationship.

 

Any Italian ladies here by the way?

[ErichVon]

Things I learned after watching Red Tails (2012):

 

1. Germans are not smart, you're leading the enemy back to your base and don't think about radioing ahead to warn them.

2. The enemy is more polite then your own countrymen, they refer to the Red tails as 'Africans' and your own use the n-word.

3. Escaping from a German POW camp looks really easy.

4. A good way to pickup Italian women is to do a flyover of her house and then show up at her doorstep.

5. When you design an airfield in a combat zone, make sure you place the buildings and tents within 20 feet of the runway sides and put the largest concentration at the end of the runway.

6. When you yank back on the stick and kick the rudder hard at 400+ km/h your plane will stop and pirouette in mid-air and your guns will align up perfectly on the enemy on your six.

7. Me-262s always attacked in packs of 20 or so.

8. When you are escorting bombers to the enemy's capital it is no big deal to chatter incessantly on the radios and even talk about where you are going and where you are.

9. Me-262's sound like Tie Fighters from Star Wars.

10. Making a head-on pass at an Me-262's cannons is a smart tactical move.

11. German warships sailed alone in broad daylight right near an American air base.

12. Despite being 180+ km/h faster, German jets are cupcakes when facing the Red Tails.

13. Me-262's cannons are only strong enough to plink aircraft hulls and put small holes into the canopy.

14. .50 cal machine guns on B17s sounded like that of a twin turbo laser.

15. When your best friend dies during aerial combat and you see his plane crash to the ground, you woodenly say "Damn!" like you just dropped your slice of pizza.

16. Fighters are now required to fly in between the bombers to protect them.

17. Momma doesn't care if the foreigner you let in your home soils your couch with your daughter in a premarital romp that would create a shotgun wedding back home.

18. German 30mm rounds made 8mm bullet holes.

19. German prison guards are horrible shots.

20. American bomber pilots all wear leather jackets with a big picture of a B17 on the back like a high school letterman's jacket.

21. The Germans only used 109s, skipped 190s, and went straight to a whole lone squadron of Me-262s.

22. Italian women say, "I love you" first in the relationship.

 

Any Italian ladies here by the way?

 

#7 : Might want to discuss that with Chuck Yeager

[PeterP]

muamshai!

Muhahahah! thanks for putting this together!

 

- now I can show the list my wife to proof her why I didn't wanted to watch this film with her - she will finally understand why I said that I won't watch it with her together - only to protect her from me.

(sometimes she thinks I do this because I believe she will not understand this aerial-kind-of-thing stuff...)

[Vecko]

@ Muamshai,

Priceless!:)

[Presing]

Things I learned after watching Red Tails (2012):

 

...

 

Very good and in-depth findings.

 

Presing

[ShuRugal]

HORRIBLE movie! :D

 

The only good movies about the WWII are "Battle of Britain" (year 1969), "Memphiss Belle" (year 1990) and (for me) "Dark Blue World" (year 2001)...

 

you forgot "1944" :music_whistling:

 

The maneouvre can be done and has been used in dogfights, Richard Candaleria talks about the move in this video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdCm5z2RpI8

 

the maneuver candaleria described was either a sideslip or a snap-roll. The maneuver shown in the animation should have been a snap roll: the left wing was not moving (therefore, not lifting), the right wing was, plane rolls left.

 

This maneuver CAN NOT BE DONE by any plane from the WW2 era. Period.

 

What worries me more is that Candaleria, who is a real WW2 pilot, sits in front of the camera and lies about his war stories. As if he has to glorify them to make him look better.

 

what candaleria described is entirely possible. what the animation team slapped together is not. The history channel stopped making documentaries years ago, now they just make "television"

 

It was a rethorical question. I know it's History Channel. That is my point.

 

You do not go to the History Channel for factual accuracy. Sadly those days are gone. Nowadays you go there for "reality" shows about roughneck loggers, various UFO crap etcetera. They're not in this for accuracy, they, like most other TV stations, are here to offer entertainment for old Joe Regular.

 

It's unfortunate, but that's the way it is.

 

I had to stop watching them when they became the UFO/Bible-Study Channel. Sad, really/

[104th_Crunch]

@ Muamshai,

HA HA Awesome

[Yurgon]

muamshai, thanks, that was really good. :)

[71st_Mastiff]

that's why I waited for VUDU DVD release Tuesday.

[RoaringBones]

you forgot "1944" :music_whistling:

 

 

 

the maneuver candaleria described was either a sideslip or a snap-roll. The maneuver shown in the animation should have been a snap roll: the left wing was not moving (therefore, not lifting), the right wing was, plane rolls left.

 

 

 

what candaleria described is entirely possible. what the animation team slapped together is not. The history channel stopped making documentaries years ago, now they just make "television"

 

 

 

I had to stop watching them when they became the UFO/Bible-Study Channel. Sad, really/

he also forgot,The Longest day,Midway,Tora Tora,Tora,Force 10 form Naverone,A birdge To Far,battle of the bulge..Patton Another movie of Note:Hell Is for Heroes.

 

hell just for kicks i'll throw in Enemy at the gates ;).i can go on soo many great movies...by great actors....:music_whistling:

[cichlidfan]

I had to stop watching them when they became the UFO/Bible-Study Channel.

 

...and Swamp Lifestyle, can't forget that one.:D

[Vekkinho]

I just watched Red Tails and I like it. Shots of the city where Sofia lives in recorded in Rovinj, Croatia:

 

 

 

It really was an Italian city Rovigno up until 1945 when it was taken by Yugoslavia.

[71st_Mastiff]

well thats were they filmed most of the movie.

 

I just watched the movie, and it was really edited bad!

 

The vioce overs and script syntex changes were uneeded.

 

The acting was good, but what ruined it for me was the script.

 

Very bad.2 thumbs up is all it got from me glad I waited to watch from VUDU, :thumbup::thumbup:

[Kenan]

All in all, a bad movie and sometimes (especially the opening scenes) bad acting..too much cliches..very predictable..shallow characters you can't really connect with..meh..waste of good Crunchips..

[WildBillKelsoe]

@ muamshai.. Hahahaha... I can't stop laughing.. So on the dot...

 

 

OP: I want you to watch the DVD version, play it slow-mo, and see how the dials on the cockpit (altimeter, accelerometer) are not moving. That is proof alone that the maneuver is bogus. Check his legs too, the torquing effect should warrant some violent rudder correction, that he is just shaking his legs and not applying pressure to the pedals.

 

Thirdly, if that maneuver was possible, it would be called a snap-roll.

 

Candelaria performed a snap-roll gentlemen, not a cloverleaf, not a cobra. Here is a video for a WWI sim tutorial on how to perform it (presumably, a monoplane will perform more aggressively than a biplane).

 

 

Fourth and foremost, and final, the red tails maneuver is a reproduced history channel footage, merely into the new gear.

 

However, since I don't own a rudder, I'd love to try perfecting the snap roll. In fact, to make it a challenge, I encourage you all to try it. Online, is the best place to practice with friends.

 

 

CAN'T BE PERFORMED:

 

MANUAL P. 114

When performing a loop, the nose of the aircraft needs to be pulled over the top, as it may not do so by itself. Without pulling pressure on the stick, the aircraft has a tendency to climb on its back.

The aerodynamic characteristics of the P-51D are such that snap rolls cannot be satisfactorily performed. Attempting to snap roll the aircraft aggressively may result in a power spin.

High performance maneuvers can only be performed when the fuselage tank contains less than 40 gallons of fuel.

Edited June 13, 2012 by WildBillKelsoe

[Weltensegler]

found this a bit late :)

Glad to see you all hate the movie :-/

 

I was animation supervisor on Red Tails and yes dials and feet are not moving correctly...because no plane got airborne for the movie.

Some dials we had to make move at all.

We shot mocups with greenscreen at max. Most shots are completely CG.

And yes it was painful to animate impossible maneuvers ...but also fun :)

Story and acting was not my department, hehe.

As simmer I can promise you I tried to make things as accurate as possible and I even caused shots and maneuvers to change in order to make them more accurate...what I mean to say it could have been worse.

Its a movie...not a documentary. See it like "The walking dead" its not great but there is not a lot cool stuff to this topic out there so one can still watch it and enjoy.

[104th_Crunch]

Thanks for the background info. Very cool! Yes, we all know Hollywood. I still enjoyed the movie and own the blu ray.