GBU-38 Effectiveness

[GAJ52]

This is a question rather than a problem.

 

Has the effectiveness of the GBU-38 been reduced in 1.1.2.1 ? I use the Instant Action / Easy-East Georgia-Spring as a training/testing mission. At waypoint 3, the Patrol, I normally take this out with a GBU-38 dropped between the two trucks and it works every time in 1.1.1.1. Now in 1.1.2.1 it never works I've tried several times, it kills the solders but the trucks just drive away ?

 

Glen

[WildBillKelsoe]

why would you use a weapon designed for static targets ONLY, on MOVING targets?? GBU-38 is for constructions and fortifications. GBU-12 is your friend. And don't forget to turn on the autolase, and the lase switch of the TGP on AHCP.

 

I take all back since I just noticed you're talking 2.1 which I skipped looking at. Sincerest/

Edited May 23, 2012 by WildBillKelsoe

[roob]

The targets at Patrol WP are static WildBill...

 

As for the effectiveness, I have no idea. I tried taking out the first two trucks with rockets, but other than very nice explosions, those were utter shit too :)

[GAJ52]

You obviously haven't done this mission Sir as the targets are Static, they only move after they have been attacked.

 

The trucks in question are only 3 or 4 truck lengths from the bomb blast, if a 500lb bomb can't damage a truck at this distance something needs looking at.

[Longbow116]

You obviously haven't done this mission Sir as the targets are Static, they only move after they have been attacked.

 

The trucks in question are only 3 or 4 truck lengths from the bomb blast, if a 500lb bomb can't damage a truck at this distance something needs looking at.

 

i did same experiance at monday. Usually i aim between two trucks at mentioned waypoint using GBU-38 and they got hit by the blast and blown up. With version 1121 it seams not to work any longer.

[Yellonet]

One would think that 89 kg of explosives in a thick metal case would do some damage...

[TurboHog]

I have noticed some more 'nerfed' weapons

 

CBU-87, will leave 50% of the infantry alive using standard HOF setting

Russian unguided rockets, even the OFP2 improved fragmentation rocket will only kill a very soft target with a direct hit. The 30mm is stronger, seriously.

[Eddie]

CBU-87, will leave 50% of the infantry alive using standard HOF setting

 

That does somewhat make sense, given that the deault HOF produces a footprint much larger than the optimum for CBU-87/103. It's also too high for CBU-97 as well.

 

As for other weapons seeming weaker than previously, I'll try and find some time to take a look. Can you give me a list of the weapons/target vehicles in question so I have a starting point?

[FreeFall]

i did same experiance at monday. Usually i aim between two trucks at mentioned waypoint using GBU-38 and they got hit by the blast and blown up. With version 1121 it seams not to work any longer.

 

With standalone v1.1.1.1, after the GBU-38 explosion exactly between the trucks, the drivers of the trucks hit the gas pedal and drive some 15 meters and only then they die as the trucks eventually explode as well.

 

I think with earlier versions (prior v1.1.1.1) the truck drivers died a bit faster and saved some gas :).

[GAJ52]

As for other weapons seeming weaker than previously, I'll try and find some time to take a look. Can you give me a list of the weapons/target vehicles in question so I have a starting point?

 

If you look at my first post it explains the correct mission, waypoint and weapon. If you place the GBU-38 between the trucks in 1.1.1.1 they both explode, in 1.1.2.1 they just drive off a few metres and remain untouched.

[Skoop]

That does somewhat make sense, given that the deault HOF produces a footprint much larger than the optimum for CBU-87/103. It's also too high for CBU-97 as well.

 

As for other weapons seeming weaker than previously, I'll try and find some time to take a look. Can you give me a list of the weapons/target vehicles in question so I have a starting point?

 

 

If 1800 is the default HOF for CBUs, what HOF do you recommend as optimal.

 

I been having issues with my 105 drops being off by 50 to 100 feet and I suspect it may be the HOF.

[Eddie]

700-900 works nicely for the 97/105, although be careful as it may need to be increased when working in areas with significant elevation variations, hence the 1800ft default ("idiot proof") HOF.

 

87/103 isn't really as simple as setting a single optimum HOF & RPM, but HOF 1200 & RPM 2000 is a good catch all for most (soft) area targets. Ripple pairs to increase the number of submunitions per sq/ft for light armour. It real depends what effect you want to have on the target and what the target is.

[GAJ52]

Eddie

 

Did you get the chance to look at the mission and weapons I suggested ?

 

How do I get this problem to the attention of the ED developers

 

Glen

[Eddie]

I've just checked the mission you refer to in the ME, and looking at the trucks at mission WP 3 named Patrol (I assume that's what you are referring to).

 

There is no way a Mk-82 should be able to destroy both trucks, they are nearly 200ft apart. By 100ft the blast pressure from a Mk-82 is already down to 5 psi at most (a 5 psi blast over pressure isn't even enough to rupture human eardrums in most cases). Lethal blast radius for a Mk-82 is more like 50-75 feet, and fragmentation is not currently simulated in DCS (although weapon damage effects are tweaked slightly to allow for it). There are reports from Desert Storm, Bosnia, Afghanistan etc. of Mk-82s impacting 30 feet from soft skinned vehicles such as trucks, only for them to carry on driving on blown tyres.

 

Put simply, I see no problem with a Mk-82 not having a lethal effect on both of those trucks. And yes, there has been a lot of weapon/damage model tweaking between 1.1.1.1 and current versions.

Edited May 27, 2012 by Eddie

[GAJ52]

I am very surprised at what you say, I would have thought a 500lb bomb would have a much larger damage radius than that.

 

However as I have no first hand knowledge of these weapons I must accept what you say.

[159th_Viper]

...I would have thought a 500lb bomb would have a much larger damage radius than that....

 

You need to distinguish between the bomb's kill-zone radius and the blast radius. While the former is modelled with a degree of accuracy, the latter is also, but without any visual indications.

 

If you have a look at the debrief screen, you will notice that the trucks do sustain a degree of damage, just not enough for them to be an outright kill. In other words, the trucks were in the blast radius of the 38 and sustained damage as a consequence: They were just not near enough to be in the kill-zone, which is why they drove away.

[Eddie]

I am very surprised at what you say, I would have thought a 500lb bomb would have a much larger damage radius than that.

 

However as I have no first hand knowledge of these weapons I must accept what you say.

 

They do and they don't at the same time. The blast effects of the weapon diminish very rapidly (good job really as they are regularly employed VERY close to friendly troops in Afghanistan), however the fragmentation effects are much larger.

 

The important thing to remember when it comes to fragmentation is (apart from the fact is isn't truly modelled in DCS) that the frag effects vary greatly depending on the fuse used, the terrain and the method of delivery. Impact fuses (which is all we have in DCS at present) don't produce much frag (at least at ground level) and impact fused weapons do most of their damage by blast. Air burst fuses on the other hand do most of their damage with frag effects and are more effective against soft skinned vehicles and dismounted infantry, but we don't have them in the sim.

[peter]

It would be cool if we could fuse the bombs so they detonate at 50ft AGL or at something other than the surface (POI) to maximize destruction.

[FreeFall]

It would be cool if we could fuse the bombs so they detonate at 50ft AGL or at something other than the surface (POI) to maximize destruction.

 

+1.

 

 

By the way, I often have some "3 GBU-38s CCRP/1 pass " -fun. Let's say your targets are three (so far static) BTRs which are not close enough to each other so you could take them out with only one GBU-38. If you fly high enough (some 12 000 ft. is nice) and are fast enough you can easily have enough time to pickle 3 GBU-38s one after another.

 

Zoom your TGP so that you can see all the targets. You then designate the first target (AREA mode) and pickle as soon as you see the "MAN REL". Then you just move the TGP cursor quickly over the second target and pickle again...wait!... not over the second target (because the driver will hit the gas pedal and drive away after the first blast), but instead (and this is the fun part) you move the cursor to the point you guestimate the driver of the second BTR will reach before your second bomb hits the ground level (actually hopefully the BTR). Then you do the same with the third BTR.

 

You have to be quick, but not too quick. Quick pickle -> possibly ABORTED GBU-38s.

[GGTharos]

Not as they are now. There is no fragmentation modeled so whatever altitude you fuse'em at won't matter.

 

It would be cool if we could fuse the bombs so they detonate at 50ft AGL or at something other than the surface (POI) to maximize destruction.

[SmokeyTheLung]

Not as they are now. There is no fragmentation modeled so whatever altitude you fuse'em at won't matter.

 

:badmood::badmood::badmood: Party pooper :D

 

 

 

oops...:banned:

 

 

On a serious note, on the subject of selectable fusing/frag effects; That'll be the day!

[Whisky One]

I like doing WP Patrol with the gun and some rockets, when I want to I use 2 GBU's. I try to drop the second one as mentioned before on the previous page with some lead from the second truck at about 5000 feet @ release.

 

I use the "tank busting 101" practice mission a lot to try delivery techniques and learn more about all the loadouts and functions.

[GAJ52]

Put simply, I see no problem with a Mk-82 not having a lethal effect on both of those trucks. And yes, there has been a lot of weapon/damage model tweaking between 1.1.1.1 and current versions.

 

I hope ED remembers this is supposed to be an entertaining combat simulation, I am all for realism but its also meant to be entertaining. If you spend some time setting up the weapon and target as per the manua,l there is nothing more satisfying than seeing your target explode, it makes you come back for more. However going through all this trouble and seeing your soft skinned targets drive away after a perfect impact leaves you rather deflated and makes you thing why bother.

 

There should be a balance between realism and game play to keep the user interested - I thought 1.1.1.1 was just about right.

[159th_Viper]

There should be a balance between realism and game play to keep the user interested.....

 

At the expense of introducing effects which are inherently unrealistic?

 

No thank you.

 

Things should work as they are supposed to work, no more and no less (taking into account the inherent constraints/limitations of the SIM). There's a good reason it's called Digital Combat Simulator as opposed to Digital Combat Gameplay :)

[Eddie]

I hope ED remembers this is supposed to be an entertaining combat simulation, I am all for realism but its also meant to be entertaining. If you spend some time setting up the weapon and target as per the manua,l there is nothing more satisfying than seeing your target explode, it makes you come back for more. However going through all this trouble and seeing your soft skinned targets drive away after a perfect impact leaves you rather deflated and makes you thing why bother.

 

There should be a balance between realism and game play to keep the user interested - I thought 1.1.1.1 was just about right.

 

But if the "targets" are close enough for the blast of a single weapon to destroy them, they will be destroyed. I regularly "kill" multiple targets with a single MK-82 (or PGM variant thereof), you just have to ensure you only try and do such things when the target separation actually allows for it.

 

If your targets drive away, it wasn't a "perfect impact" now was it.