The Cube

[PeterP]

Personally, I'd go with a 92x92x92" layout with a mobile framework so it fits in a regular room when not setting up elsewhere. You're going to limit your options if you go 8.5x8.5x8.5 unless you have non-standard ceiling height at home.

 

I say it the last time :

 

Going below 8.5' x 8.5' x 8.5' will not enable you to use the Optoma GT720 and also put a full-scale human and A-10 pit with a canopy-frame in it.

 

Going below 8.5' will

-cast shadows with the Pit and you are not be able to have your eyes in the right view-position

- The beams of the top projector will be right behind the front dash = no room for a real Working HUD.

You than have to live with a very pixelated one that is projected by the front-projector..

 

A Smaller projection-box-size while keeping the Cockpit mock-up in right scale is only possible when you use a back-projection.

 

But than you need a bigger room as 8.5' x 8.5' x 8.5'...

 

There was a good reason for this posting:

 

Today I'm working on finishing the frame in 2x4's and 1/8th fiberboard.

Flim,

Before you make your first cut - or something that you cant revert back without buying again...:

There are some huge disadvantages by going from a 9 feet square to a 7feet square. And I don't want that you will regret it soon.

I will set up my system in a way so you can watch my desktop and sketch-up via Skype, so I can show it to you in detail and we can discuss them.

You can already make some of them out when examine the model closely.

(I now don't have time to write it all down)

 

I'm in approx 1,5 hours home again.

 

... and why Flim made it than anyway smaller is beyond my understanding...

 

-whatever-

 

 

Now he saw the problems and makes it again in 8.5'.

Edited January 15, 2013 by PeterP

[PeterP]

Man, I was just trying to be helpful. I think I'll leave the thread alone now.

Bhathrowne,...

Are you taking always everything personal ? - just wondering.

 

I just wanted to tell you what you have missed - so there are no "surprises" when trying to put a "full-size" A-10 pit in a room that is smaller than 8.5' in each dimension.

 

Edit: And I really hope that just being able to count 1+1 together with the help of a CAD drawing program is not just my "territory".

Edited January 15, 2013 by PeterP

[Flim]

You can make the pit work if you make it shorter for 777. My initial frame was a test and it works, but I decided that a full pit is my goal (with canopy frame) so I will build another frame. I'm trying to build the new one lighter and with less material.

[geneb]

That setup looks really good guys. Great job!

 

Keep in mind that when you're comparing your DIY rig to the commercial systems, often times the commercial display is using a polygon shaped "bug eye" that's collimated. This is how the F-15 flight sim visuals are done by L3. The static photos you see of them don't show how good they look when your head is in the right spot.

 

Flim, your video shows a visual "wrap" as things cross the corner of the display box - is this an actual visual issue or is it an artifact of the video recording process you're using?

 

g.

[Flim]

That setup looks really good guys. Great job!

 

Keep in mind that when you're comparing your DIY rig to the commercial systems, often times the commercial display is using a polygon shaped "bug eye" that's collimated. This is how the F-15 flight sim visuals are done by L3. The static photos you see of them don't show how good they look when your head is in the right spot.

 

Flim, your video shows a visual "wrap" as things cross the corner of the display box - is this an actual visual issue or is it an artifact of the video recording process you're using?

 

g.

 

No visual issue imho... you have to realize that a transition of 90 degress is happening and if your not in the center of the cube, it will look funny.

[geneb]

That's what I suspected. This may just be the method I need to use with the F-15 because it's too big to build a "standard" (non-bugeye) collimated display around.

 

Have you considered putting your cockpit up on a riser that will get you up off the floor a few feet?

 

g.

[Flim]

That's what I suspected. This may just be the method I need to use with the F-15 because it's too big to build a "standard" (non-bugeye) collimated display around.

 

Have you considered putting your cockpit up on a riser that will get you up off the floor a few feet?

 

g.

 

 

Yes, I'm going to build a full A-10 pit like Gadroc which is a little off the ground which means I will build a new cube frame so my eye point will be correct.

[geneb]

Ah, very cool. You're not using any screen warping software, correct?

 

I wonder how practical a rear-projection setup would be given the dimensions I'd have to work with (minimum would be 10' to a side I think)

 

g.

[Flim]

Well, it might be something to test... it depends how big you want the visual to be...

 

I might do some research on the subject-

[PeterP]

Ah, very cool. You're not using any screen warping software, correct?

 

I wonder how practical a rear-projection setup would be given the dimensions I'd have to work with (minimum would be 10' to a side I think)

 

g.

 

Geneb - Start reading at this post :

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1515921#post1515921

and you will see that a rear-projection needs more space than 10'.

 

[Gadroc]

Everyone probably should realize sim pit building is all about making choices that compromise another aspect of the build. There is no "perfect" build in either visuals or the pit itself. What there usually is a "good build" for your situation.

 

Peter is pointing out a few things that need to be understood, but can be compromised if needed. I'm going to attempt to restate them here and what I think they affect.

 

Eye Position

When using the CUBE project supported by DCS there is only one head position where everything looks perfect. That position is the direct center of the cube. In essence this means your normal sitting eye position should be directly in the center of the cube and at half the height of your walls. If you vary from this there will be some distortion when objects move between projection surfaces. How much this annoys someone is something they will have to figure out for themselves. People have varying tolerances for this. Peter obviously wants a perfect image, while some of the rest of us have more flexibility by this. It is a must to understand this before you invest lots of $.

 

Impacts: Seating/Pit Height, Pit Depth

 

Projection Volume & Aspect Ratio

You can not have anything standing between your projector and the wall or it will cast a shadow. You can envision this in your mind as a pyramid with it's top placed at the lens of the projector and it's base being parallel to the projector lens(these are the green pyramids in Peter's images). Ideally your wall is parallel like this and the image will be perfectly square, unfortunately this is not usually possible because your seating position is between the projector and the wall. We mount the projectors on the ceiling to project over the viewer. When you do this your image on the wall becomes a trapezoid and use "keystone" correction to make the image square again.

 

Make sure you understand these projection volumes relative to the size of pit. In particular on the A-10 the biggest possible piece for shadows are the canopy rail and pilots head. If you want / need the canopy rail you will need a larger projection room. In addition if you are really tall do some measurements before deciding on a room size.

 

Lastly commercial projectors are not made with a 1:1 aspect ratio, therefore you will not get projection on the full wall. You will be left with several feet at the bottom of each wall with out projection. In addition even you could find/build them that way the projection volume discussed above will case shadows in some areas unless the projector was directly on top of the user. In a way 16:10 helps as it makes less chance of shadow from the pit/pilot.

 

The largest impact by this is the top projection, since it's mounted in front of the pit pointing up. Since your eye position should be half way between the front and back walls and your pit has to leave enough room for this projection volume. For 7.5ft or smaller cubes this doesn't leave a lot of room.

 

You can use the nice calculator at projector central to find the screen size at various projection distances to calculate your projection volume.

 

Impacts: Pit Height, Pilot Height Maximums, Pit Depth, Projector Placement

 

Projector Brightness & Pixel Size

This is an aspect that has not been talked about but should. The farther the projector is away from the wall the less bright the image will be. In addition each pixel will appear bigger. This has two effects.

 

First low brightness will cause the projection to appear washed out. You can see an example of this by looking at Flim's first videos projecting directly onto the walls vs his video with the 7ft cube. It's not a completely fair comparison has his 7ft cube as a better projection surface, but even so there is a traumatic difference in perceived quality of the image. The closer the projector is the more forgiving it is to poor quality screens. Flim did not have to use expensive projection screen paint on his 7ft cube, but I suspect he would have had to if he kept projecting onto the room walls.

 

Second is pixel size. In particular the HUD. When the projection surface is farther away the HUD will get bigger and look more blocky.

 

On the flip side of this is focal distance of the images. For everything aside from the HUD having the wall further away enhances the sense of depth, due to the refocus your eye does from the pit itself to the wall.

 

Impacts: Project Surface Quality Requirements, Project Surface Size, Image Quality

 

Ease of Build & Available Space

Smaller cubes are easier to build. If your cube is 8ft or under you can buy 4x8 surface sheets and have them cut appropriate at your local home improvement store. You will only have one seam in each wall to tape/mud/sand to make it smooth. Or in the case of a 7ft pit the seam is below your normal line of sight, you may just be able to ignore it.

 

Lastly not everyone has a room with enough space for an 8.5ft or larger projections surface. You may be in a room where you still need to access a closet, or you need enough space so that you can open windows for cooling, etc. You will need to make compromises about the above to do a cube.

 

Rear projection systems solve 90% of the problems above but require about 8 feet more free space out side of each wall. Aka for an 7 foot cube you would need a room that is 23 feet wide and 15 feet high and deep. To mount the projectors 7' behind each wall.

 

Impacts: Required tools, Skill of builder

 

As you can see with all these issues you have conflicting goals. Eye Position, Projection Volume and Depth of Focus want you to have a larger projection surface but brightness, image quality, space and ease of build want smaller.

 

Personally I don't have room for anything larger than 7ft cube, so I'm going to have to compromise. At the end of the day I won't have perfect eye position and run the risk of occasional shadows and I can't have a canopy rail. From talking with Flim the immersion is still worth those trade offs (albeit with $3k of visual equipment and materials).

[BIGNEWY]

Nice post Gadroc

 

I have also been thinking of a projector project but using a spherical mirror setup as my space is limited

 

some examples here

 

http://paulbourke.net/dome/mirrorbox/ example 5 in this link

 

 

 

2013 is going to be interesting :)

[Flim]

Good post Gadroc, and exactly what I would of said myself.

 

 

Is it worth the trouble and money?

 

If you want the most complete sim experience available at home... yes IMHO

 

When my setup consisted of a single large screen and trackir, I use to fly the P51 vs P51 quick dogfight mission quite often. Most of the time I would lose position of the bogey aircraft and would hit the ground or get shot down. Last night I flew the dogfight in the cube for the first time and we were in a vertical fight for 10 min until the opponent lost situational awareness and slammed into the ground. It's the first time I've seen the opposing P51 hit the ground! I never lost sight of him in the fight, and was the most fun I have had in any simulation!

[BIGNEWY]

Is it worth the trouble and money?

 

If you want the most complete sim experience available at home... yes IMHO

 

Seeing your cube come to life has inspired me to look for a one projector alternative to engage my peripheral vision, I want the immersion experience as well.

[PeterP]

Hi Flim,

 

Here is the first the mod that switches off the cockpit,

So you start always in the right view when entering a A-10C mission.

 

>>> http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?6qrzsl72lpoi69z

 

Here is a preview what portions you are able to view on 6400x800 when using

these values in the A-10C F1 camera:

Snap[11][13]["y_trans"] = -0.014594854883695

Snap[11][13]["x_trans"] = 0.30506944444444

Snap[11][13]["hAngle"] = 0

Snap[11][13]["viewAngle"] = 90

Snap[11][13]["vAngle"] = -11.402775000012

Snap[11][13]["rollAngle"] = 0

Snap[11][13]["z_trans"] = 0

 

This mod will not only switch of the cockpit - it will also switch of the "in-cockpit"-mfcd render.

 

So please follow this installation advise to play 100% save in case you have installed any other mods and to save you from the pain to install them all again if something doesn't works:

1. First run a "repair DCS world"

windows Start > All programs > Eagle Dynamics > DCS World > Repair DCS World

For clarity sake:

This will create a "_backup.0XX" folder in your DCS root folder.

Example path: G:\Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World

 

2.

Please rename this last created '_backup.XXX' folder to "Last working DCS World before using Peters files" ..or something like this.

 

3.

Than make a copy of this folder and rename it to "DCS World after using Peters files" ..or something like that.

 

 

4. Copy my unzipped file in this "DCS World after using Peters files".

 

5. Copy the contend of "DCS World after using Peters files" into your DCS World install.

Example path: G:\Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World

-now you switched off the cockpit in the F1 view.

 

Use the contend of the folder "Last working DCS World before using Peters files" to revert back.

Edited January 16, 2013 by PeterP

[Flim]

Hey Peter...

 

this decreases frames by 12-15, doesn't make much difference in the visual anyhow.

 

Do need the correct zoom for start though, always have to adjust it.

[geneb]

Geneb - Start reading at this post :

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1515921#post1515921

and you will see that a rear-projection needs more space than 10'.

 

I wasn't clear. I was referring to the physical size of the screen - 10' to a side, not the required distance for doing rear-projection.

 

g.

[Gadroc]

It looks like with the GT750 and native 16:10 you would have to be able to place the projector 7'2" behind each screen to get a 10ft wide image. That means you'd need at least a 25ft x 18ft room (assuming not doing back view) and an 18ft ceiling if you want to do rear projection on the ceiling as well. That will give you a 75" tall image so you'd end up with 45" of non projected surface at the bottom of each wall.

 

If you use 4:3 mode you would need 8' 8" mount distance for the projectors, but would have a 90" tall image resulting in only 30" of unprojected surface. I'm not sure about impact on image quality. I suspect that the projector is going to scale your image and not use optics to make the 1280 wide pixel narrower. According to the manual this is 1066x800 resolution.

[PeterP]

Hey Peter...

 

this decreases frames by 12-15, doesn't make much difference in the visual anyhow.

 

Roger!

 

Do need the correct zoom for start though, always have to adjust it.

 

Well, you have to fixate you snap-view like I told you already:

Snap[11][13]["viewAngle"] = 90

 

 

anyway - you wont have to worry about it any more.

 

I made a package that fixates all views to 90° and I did also put in a blank 'focus.png' - so you wont have a oval any more when using the NVG.

 

Copy the contend of the "DCS World" folder into your DCS installation.

 

And than I also made a AHK macro that switches to 'HUD-Only View' when you press the Pause/Break at your keyboard when you enter the Briefing screen.

 

You will have to copy the Folder 'Start_DCS_in_HUD-Only-View' directly into your drive C .

 

Than you will find in it a 'Start_DCS_in_HUD-Only-View.exe'.

 

This script has to be started before you run the simulation.

The best and most convenient thing is to ad a shortcut of this exe into your "Startup" folder.

This will make sure that the script is "listening" every time you boot the system.

 

Path to your Startup folder :

C:\Users\>your user name<\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs\Startup

 

 

What this scrip does:

 

It 'listens' to windows and will be ready to start the Macro-sequence once the DCS-simulation process is detected.

 

Than it waits for your input = Brake/Pause key

and it triggers

1.Alt+F1 = HUD only view

2.NumPad5 = Center View

3.NumPadEnter = set to default FOV (90°)

 

Once this macro has done its job- it goes to "sleep" - and only restarts and prepares another launch when it detects that you exit the simulation and run it again.

That is important - so you can use the Pause/Break key again while the simulation is running without to trigger a chain of commands.

 

We can change it later on to another Hot-key and/or a jostick-button.

You can also automate the whole Helios start-up process.

 

For those that are interested - here is the code:

 

 

Start_DCS_in_HUD-Only-View.AHK

#NoEnv  ; Recommended for performance and compatibility with future AutoHotkey releases.
#Warn  ; Recommended for catching common errors.
SendMode Input  ; Recommended for new scripts due to its superior speed and reliability.
SetWorkingDir %A_ScriptDir%  ; Ensures a consistent starting directory.


;Process, Close, phantomMonitorFix.exe
;Sleep 100
;Process, Close, phantomMonitorFix.exe
;Sleep 4000
WinActivate, ahk_class DCS

;WinWaitActive, ahk_class DCS
;ifWinExist ahk_class DCS
;Run , C:\Start_DCS_in_HUD-Only-View\phantomMonitorFix.exe

WinWaitActive, ahk_class DCS
ifWinExist ahk_class DCS
WinActivate, ahk_class DCS
MsgBox, 64, ,Don't press the Pause/Break Key until DCS is fully loaded and the "Fly Button" is visible.                         This message will disappear in 15 seconds, 15


WinActivate, ahk_class DCS




KeyWait, Pause, D 

sleep 60

Click 200, 200 right  

sleep 60

WinActivate, ahk_class DCS

sleep 60

Sendevent {Pause down}

sleep 60

Sendevent {Pause up}

sleep 60

Run , C:\Start_DCS_in_HUD-Only-View\HUD-Only-Macro.exe



WinWait, ahk_class DCS
WinWaitClose ahk_class DCS
;Process, Close, phantomMonitorFix.exe
;Sleep 100
;Process, Close, phantomMonitorFix.exe
;Sleep 100
;Process, Close, phantomMonitorFix.exe

Run , C:\Start_DCS_in_HUD-Only-View\Start_DCS_in_HUD-Only-View.exe



return

HUD-Only-Macro.AHK

#NoEnv  ; Recommended for performance and compatibility with future AutoHotkey releases.
#Warn  ; Recommended for catching common errors.
SendMode Input  ; Recommended for new scripts due to its superior speed and reliability.
SetWorkingDir %A_ScriptDir%  ; Ensures a consistent starting directory.


WinActivate, ahk_class DCS



sleep 60

Sendevent {LAlt down}

sleep 60

Sendevent {F1 down}

sleep 60

Sendevent {F1 up}

sleep 60

Sendevent {LAlt up}

sleep 60

Sendevent {Numpad5 down}

sleep 60

Sendevent {Numpad5 up}

sleep 5000

Sendevent {NumpadEnter down}

sleep 60

Sendevent {NumpadEnter up}

 

 

 

 

Download:

>>> Start_DCS_in_HUD-Only-View.zip

Edited January 17, 2013 by PeterP

[Flim]

This works great btw....

[Mr_Burns]

What about the floor view as well as the rear? From what I can see you only have 3/4 of a solution.....pfffft.

[Flim]

Hi Flim,

 

Here is the first the mod that switches off the cockpit,

So you start always in the right view when entering a A-10C mission.

 

>>> http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?6qrzsl72lpoi69z

 

Here is a preview what portions you are able to view on 6400x800 when using

these values in the A-10C F1 camera:

 

This mod will not only switch of the cockpit - it will also switch of the "in-cockpit"-mfcd render.

 

So please follow this installation advise to play 100% save in case you have installed any other mods and to save you from the pain to install them all again if something doesn't works:

1. First run a "repair DCS world"

windows Start > All programs > Eagle Dynamics > DCS World > Repair DCS World

For clarity sake:

This will create a "_backup.0XX" folder in your DCS root folder.

Example path: G:\Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World

 

2.

Please rename this last created '_backup.XXX' folder to "Last working DCS World before using Peters files" ..or something like this.

 

3.

Than make a copy of this folder and rename it to "DCS World after using Peters files" ..or something like that.

 

 

4. Copy my unzipped file in this "DCS World after using Peters files".

 

5. Copy the contend of "DCS World after using Peters files" into your DCS World install.

Example path: G:\Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World

-now you switched off the cockpit in the F1 view.

 

Use the contend of the folder "Last working DCS World before using Peters files" to revert back.

 

 

Hey Peter,

 

I was playing with this file trying to use the back left and right views...

 

could not get them to work in the monitor setup file for some reason,

 

Also, maybe a setup file for 7680x800 with added back view!

Edited February 14, 2013 by Flim

[Flim]

Also, I built a new system to see if it would help performance...

 

I5-3570K

16 gig mem

gtx670 4gb

ssd

 

I can run high settings in DCS now with 4 viewports plus helios gui 40+ fps... 6400x800

 

Now, I tested above plus back view (6th view port-- 7680x800) and was getting 25+ smooth in the take-off training mission and generated combat mission. I believe at this point a full 360 degree view is possible with the correct setup.

[agrasyuk]

very nice to hear. 670 is very likely to be my next card and i probably will follow your steps into surround simming sometime this spring/summer once we done with the move and renovation :)

[PeterP]

Hey Peter,

 

I was playing with this file trying to use the back left and right views...

 

could not get them to work in the monitor setup file for some reason,

 

Also, maybe a setup file for 7680x800 with added back view!

 

Post/email me all your right now used settings and

Catch me over Skype when you see me there.