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SAM and MANPADS detection level


Mauser55
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Hi guys, I have two questions:

 

1 - Is there any posibility to find exact position of SAM site by using only onboard instruments without help from any other unit or cheating? If I am right than you know only type of threat and direction from your position. But It is obvious that AI pilots know exact location.

 

2 - How to avoid MANPADS? I know that the best option is to perform attack from high altitude, but this is not always the option. Sometimes you have to perform gun run without knowing if there is any MANPADS. But when I am in the middle of the dive I dont have enought time to perform any maneuvers to avoid missile. I manage to drop only few flares and I am hit by then. What is the strategy in this situation?

 

Sorry for my english

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1- You can't find SAM exactly. However if it's radar guided then you can use your RWR to get a rough location and narrow your search, then use the TGP to find it.

If it is IR, then you will have to spot it by luck. Most time if they are hidden well the first you'll know of it is when your missile warning goes off!

 

2- Best tactic against MANPADS is to deploy flares on an attack run. But altitude is your friend. If your down in the dirt and one is fired at you there is little you can do if your very close to it.

 

In the first Gulf War, A-10's used to engage armour with Guns from 10,000ft. To keep away from threats. Going lower increases your risk of getting hit.


Edited by Razor5-1
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1. There is a way of working out a SAM sites position if it is showing up on your RWR.

1)Put it in your 12 and create an overhead markpoint.

2)Put another markpoint 100 miles ahead of you.

3)Turn and put the SAM on you 3/9 line and carry on like that for a few minutes.

4)Put it back on your 12 and repeat steps 1&2.

5)Create a flightplan with Markpoints A-B-C-D. The lines will cross at some point on your TAD.

6)Slew the TAD cursor to the crossing point and create another markpoint.

7)Slew TGP to new markpoint, locate SAM and either engage or hide.

 

2. You can have a pre emptive flare program, and waste no time in breaking either way in your run if you get a launch. You can always strafe from a far way out with the Hog, you only need to get close with tanks.

 

EDIT: Like Razor said the A-10's strafed from 10,000 with a 60 degree dive. That's always an option and keeps you slant range short so it's still accurate.

Always remember. I don't have a clue what I'm doing

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1. There is a way of working out a SAM sites position if it is showing up on your RWR.

1)Put it in your 12 and create an overhead markpoint.

2)Put another markpoint 100 miles ahead of you.

3)Turn and put the SAM on you 3/9 line and carry on like that for a few minutes.

4)Put it back on your 12 and repeat steps 1&2.

5)Create a flightplan with Markpoints A-B-C-D. The lines will cross at some point on your TAD.

6)Slew the TAD cursor to the crossing point and create another markpoint.

7)Slew TGP to new markpoint, locate SAM and either engage or hide.

 

2. You can have a pre emptive flare program, and waste no time in breaking either way in your run if you get a launch. You can always strafe from a far way out with the Hog, you only need to get close with tanks.

 

EDIT: Like Razor said the A-10's strafed from 10,000 with a 60 degree dive. That's always an option and keeps you slant range short so it's still accurate.

 

1. Little bit complicated but I will try it sometime.

 

2. I will definitely try it. THX

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1. There is a way of working out a SAM sites position if it is showing up on your RWR.

1)Put it in your 12 and create an overhead markpoint.

2)Put another markpoint 100 miles ahead of you.

3)Turn and put the SAM on you 3/9 line and carry on like that for a few minutes.

4)Put it back on your 12 and repeat steps 1&2.

5)Create a flightplan with Markpoints A-B-C-D. The lines will cross at some point on your TAD.

6)Slew the TAD cursor to the crossing point and create another markpoint.

7)Slew TGP to new markpoint, locate SAM and either engage or hide.

 

2. You can have a pre emptive flare program, and waste no time in breaking either way in your run if you get a launch. You can always strafe from a far way out with the Hog, you only need to get close with tanks.

 

EDIT: Like Razor said the A-10's strafed from 10,000 with a 60 degree dive. That's always an option and keeps you slant range short so it's still accurate.

 

1. I have not tried it yet.

 

2. I have noticed a few interesting things (tested on test track under same conditions).

a) MANPADS always attacked me at the same time regardless of whether I drop flares or not (I tried multiple program setting, dive angles, altitudes ect. I even tried simple flyby over MANPADS). So I believe that this strategy can be used only in real life but it is useless in DCS.

b) I believe that this is caused by my lack of skill but I was not able to shook off the missile even once after MANPADS fired at me. I tried everything, different manuevers, different flare programs but without any success. No matter how many flares I dropped :-D

c) Strafing from high altitudes was fine againts unarmored targets (trucks), but useless againts IFVs or tanks. I believe it can be caused by my lamenes (lack of accuracy) :-D


Edited by Mauser55
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Yeah, it ain't simple but it works. Only if you have time, fuel and are out of range.

:) It's always a lot simpler to draw the launch, mark it's with the Mark-1 eyeball, then go back and kill it. :) A lot more exciting, too.

 

 

Rich

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The best way to fight anti air systems is avoiding them. Especially those IR things, where you get no RWR warning.

The chance to evade missile gets greater with grater distance.

Every missile tries to calculate the point, where you and the missile will meet, so it will fly lead pursuit. Keep that in mind. So if you have a missile coming in from your 3 or 9 o' clock position gives you the best chance to avoid it, by simply changing your heading by 180 degrees. So the missile aims at a point far far behind you, and it has to spend much of its energy to change its course to a point far ahead of you.

The closer you are, the higher is the chance, that the missile will have that amount of energy left.

 

Simply flying over it dumping flares doesn't work.

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I was wondering if anybody has any good strategies for taking out manpads. In lock on with the A-10A it was easy enough with the bigger rocket pods but for some reason in DCS it is limited to the 7 round launchers ( anybody know why? ) I tried tracking with the tgp and switching to mavs but the seeker was unable to acquire a lock even when it was slave to the same spi as the tgp. So short of launching a mav I have not been able to find a relatively "safe" method for engaging manpads. Any tips would be great. What do you guys usually do? Also referring to what Furious said about "chopping the throttle" is that effective against the D.C.S model of IR Sams? In other words does the in game Ir sam actually lock on to simulated heat modeled from the engines and is that simulated heat reduced when the throttle is killed?

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Copy from the other thread:

 

The ability to lock highly depends on the contrast of the target against the background. A MANPAD is a very small target, so it can be harder to get a valid lock.

I usually take them out from higher altitude with CBUs

 

I don't think that you can reduce the temperature fast enough to get a great effect on the missiles ability to lock you. Just because you cut off the thrust that doesn't mean that there is no more heat.

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I was wondering if anybody has any good strategies for taking out manpads....

 

Shoot them with the Cannon - nothing like a hundred or so grenades being lobbed at you from above to ruin your day :D

 

 

I tried tracking with the tgp and switching to mavs but the seeker was unable to acquire a lock even when it was slave to the same spi as the tgp....

 

You do not need the TGP to track. Find the MANPAD and set the SPI on the ground next to him. You now have the TGP diamond (or tadpole) in the HUD as reference for the MANPAD's position.

 

So short of launching a mav I have not been able to find a relatively "safe" method for engaging manpads. Any tips would be great.

 

Utilizing the TGP diamond, or tadpole, in the HUD as reference for position, select the cannon and engage from head-on. Reason for the head-on engagement is that the engines are masked to an extent, allowing you to safely close the range to about 2.5nm prior to engagement.

 

At 2.5nm, put a couple hundred rounds downrange on the TGP diamond in the HUD. Confirm kill in TGP MFCD.

 

Track: MANPAD Cannon Kill.trk

 

Now the important part:

 

Do not get target-fixated - cease the attack at 2nm, confirm kill in TGP, break off 180 degrees and extend low. If you missed on the first run, extend high to low. Once safe, gain altitude and re-engage as above.

 

You might very well get launched on whilst you are extending due to your engines now facing the MANPAD and thus providing a better heat signature (explaining why it's advisable for a head-on engagement in the first instance). Do not worry - if you break off high to low 180 degrees and extend at 2nm out you'll be safe.

 

Or you can just drop a bomb on their heads from 12000ft up - your choice :)

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Yes The cannon method is very effective however it still requires you to get well withing range. I noticed using HEI greatly increases effectiveness against infantry/manpads (obviously) I wonder why even with the tgp slaved when I switched to mavs and the target is right in the cross hairs it still gives me a non tracked launch indication and does not allow me to fire. I have to uncage the seeker and then get it back right in the same place to launch. Does anybody know of any way to engage an area with a mav without having a seeker lock? Is this possible with the boat switch in the middle position with the 65D? Also does anybody know why they got rid of the 18 round rocket pods for DCS? Is the A-10C not capable of carrying them or something? Seems silly to me to put a 7 round pod in the same place that an 18 rounder would fit. In dcs rocket effectiveness is greatly reduced by the lower capacity launchers. I remember I used to create missions in lock on and put like 10 18 round pods and just saturate an area with hydra fire. Seems like a shame I cant do that in dcs however I do like the new warheads! P.S I wish the A-10 was equipped with a missile that could be guided and launched by the tgp. Wonder why nobody ever thought to slap some AGM-114's on it with the charlie upgrade.

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I wonder why even with the tgp slaved when I switched to mavs and the target is right in the cross hairs it still gives me a non tracked launch indication and does not allow me to fire....

 

That is because the Mav is not tracking. To toggle from a non-tracked state to a tracked state is TMS Fwd Short until the crosshairs collapse, indicating successful track.

 

Does anybody know of any way to engage an area with a mav without having a seeker lock?

 

Forced Correlate mode.

 

Is this possible with the boat switch in the middle position with the 65D?

 

No.

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I was under the impression that the forced correlate mode was what you used to lock onto an area as opposed to an object. If so this would make engaging manpads easy as you could just fire on the land around it instead of actually having to lock on to the individual. Can forced correlate mode be used on the T.V mavs or is it only a feature on the D model?

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I was under the impression that the forced correlate mode was what you used to lock onto an area as opposed to an object...

 

Correct. The Mav is however always going to target a specific spot in that area - you designate that spot by means of the TGP. In this case the specific 'spot' designated will be the MANPAD.

 

 

If so this would make engaging manpads easy as you could just fire on the land around it instead of actually having to lock on to the individual...

 

Exactly why I suggested it. You can even engage Medium range SAM's from 8.5nm or thereabouts without having to wait for a valid Centroid Tracking solution.

 

Can forced correlate mode be used on the T.V mavs or is it only a feature on the D model?

 

It can be used on all Mavs except the AGM/TGM-65D.

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I thought rounds do not exist beyond 2.0nm range?

 

 

I fired guns way back in an earlier version at a column of infantry at 2.5nm and nothing, no kills.

 

 

 

In anycase, something has been bothering the hell out of me, I have been watching real life HUD videos of A10s strafing things, and I compared the 1nm range from target to what it looks like 1nm in game and its wayyyyyy offff....

 

Thats why it does not make any goddamn sense when we have to engage a target at 0.7 (or actually 0.5nm) because in that range, you are ****ed.

 

From the tapes, 1nm is what would equal to 2nm in game. This makes much more sense in engaging some of these armor targets at o.5nm, which would mean 1nm IRL distance...

 

 

 

I mean look at this video and see how faaaaaaaaaaar away he is from the ground at 1.0 nm, hes at 0.5nm when hes firing, and compare that to what that looks like in DCS at that range. Its about half that distance...


Edited by ralfidude
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Can forced correlate mode be used on the T.V mavs

 

Herewith a quick illustration of a MANPAD engagement:

 

1 - Find MANPAD nest with FLIR WHOT (Boat Switch Aft)

 

2 - Set SPI in the middle of the nest (TMS Fwd Long)

 

3 - Select AGM-65H with DSMS

 

4 - Toggle Mav to Forced Correlate mode (Boat Switch Centre)

 

5 - Set FOV (China Hat Fwd Short) and slave Mav to SPI (China Hat Fwd Long)

 

6 - Set Mav slew rate to 9 ( UFC and OSB8 )

 

7 - Gently nudge Slew Control. Tracking Gate will fully collapse, indicating valid track.

 

8 - Keep an eye on the DLZ and launch at 8.5nm

 

9 - Break off, extend and confirm kill (use Missile Time of Flight indicator in HUD to anticipate impact)

 

As evident from track, a very safe way as I was still 8.5nm away at impact.

 

Track: MANPAD Forced Correlate mode.trk

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In anycase, something has been bothering the hell out of me, I have been watching real life HUD videos of A10s strafing things, and I compared the 1nm range from target to what it looks like 1nm in game and its wayyyyyy offff....

 

Thats why it does not make any goddamn sense when we have to engage a target at 0.7 (or actually 0.5nm) because in that range, you are ****ed.

 

From the tapes, 1nm is what would equal to 2nm in game. This makes much more sense in engaging some of these armor targets at o.5nm, which would mean 1nm IRL distance...

 

 

 

I mean look at this video and see how faaaaaaaaaaar away he is from the ground at 1.0 nm, hes at 0.5nm when hes firing, and compare that to what that looks like in DCS at that range. Its about half that distance...

 

Looking at a scene with your eyes and looking at it through a camera lens are two completely different scenarios. Perspective Distortion might explain your perceived anomaly.

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engage from head-on. Reason for the head-on engagement is that the engines are masked to an extent, allowing you to safely close the range to about 2.5nm prior to engagement.

 

:)

 

Is there another way to engage with the cannon, that's not as 'safe'?

 

:music_whistling:

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Is there another way to engage with the cannon, that's not as 'safe'?

 

:music_whistling:

 

As I said, from head-on at 2.5nm you are not in danger of drawing a launch. Turn your engines on him and you will be.

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Herewith a quick illustration of a MANPAD engagement:

6 - Set Mav slew rate to 9 ( UFC and OSB8 )

 

7 - Gently nudge Slew Control. Tracking Gate will fully collapse, indicating valid track.

 

Those two steps aren't necessary. You can simply TMS UP SHORT to collapse the gate.

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