CoBlue Posted November 1, 2012 Posted November 1, 2012 Been searching the net for this answer but no luck. Why does Russian planes don't have an flight path vector on the HUD? What disadvantage does the FPV have? & how were the Russian engineers thinking about this matter? Any insights? Thanx! 1 i7 8700k@4.7, 1080ti, DDR4 32GB, 2x SSD , HD 2TB, W10, ASUS 27", TrackIr5, TMWH, X-56, GProR.
Kenan Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 Yeah, would like to know this as well. :) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Commanding Officer of: 2nd Company 1st financial guard battalion "Mrcine" See our squads here and our . Croatian radio chat for DCS World
marcos Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 It's because having a little circle that bobs around the centre point of the HUD makes the pilots fly in a less predictable manner, which helps them avoid AAA fire.
tflash Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 I must say I find the Russian navigation with the circle very natural and easy. But I must admit I always also have an eye on the HSI. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
marcos Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 Is it easier than simply having a square showing you exactly where your destination is?
asparagin Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 It's because having a little circle that bobs around the centre point of the HUD makes the pilots fly in a less predictable manner, which helps them avoid AAA fire. Are you serious? Spoiler AMD Ryzen 9 5900X, MSI MEG X570 UNIFY (AM4, AMD X570, ATX), Noctua NH-DH14, EVGA GeForce RTX 3070 Ti XC3 ULTRA, Seasonic Focus PX (850W), Kingston HyperX 240GB, Samsung 970 EVO Plus (1000GB, M.2 2280), 32GB G.Skill Trident Z Neo DDR4-3600 DIMM CL16, Cooler Master 932 HAF, Samsung Odyssey G5; 34", Win 10 X64 Pro, Track IR, TM Warthog, TM MFDs, Saitek Pro Flight Rudders
4c Hajduk Veljko Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 Indeed, lack of Flight Path Marker (FPM) on Russian HUD's is a surprise to me as well. Flying with FPM is more accurate. Although the less cluttered the HUD the better it is. Thermaltake Kandalf LCS | Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD3R | Etasis ET750 (850W Max) | i7-920 OC to 4.0 GHz | Gigabyte HD5850 | OCZ Gold 6GB DDR3 2000 | 2 X 30GB OCZ Vertex SSD in RAID 0 | ASUS VW266H 25.5" | LG Blue Ray 10X burner | TIR 5 | Saitek X-52 Pro | Logitech G930 | Saitek Pro flight rudder pedals | Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit
RagnarDa Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 How about the really modern ones, like Su-30MKI and such? Same HUD layout? I see that they do upgrade the HUD symbology, like the Su-25 Scorpion HUD is different from the 25T... DCS AJS37 HACKERMAN There will always be bugs. If everything is a priority nothing is.
ZMEY-HS- Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 Modern looks quite different, at leas those ones, that supposed to be part of India's mig-29k.
RagnarDa Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 Modern looks quite different, at leas those ones, that supposed to be part of India's mig-29k. OMG those are cluttered! Especially the first one. Is it some kind of demo-mode where they put everything in there all at once? And no, there doesnt seem to be a FPM there, only the little arrow on the right side of the HUD...? DCS AJS37 HACKERMAN There will always be bugs. If everything is a priority nothing is.
ZMEY-HS- Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 Is it some kind of demo-mode where they put everything in there all at once? And no, there doesnt seem to be a FPM there, only the little arrow on the right side of the HUD...? Probably. I guess you can find fpm blinking on the right, not sure. And another shot of 29kub landing. Obscure, but there is one definitely. And first frame from the vid:
RagnarDa Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 Oh I missed it I guess... Nice catch! DCS AJS37 HACKERMAN There will always be bugs. If everything is a priority nothing is.
ФрогФут Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 If you are manily trained for instrument flight, without looking outside of the cockpit, than velocity vector is not needed that much. "Я ошеломлён, но думаю об этом другими словами", - некий гражданин Ноет котик, ноет кротик, Ноет в небе самолетик, Ноют клумбы и кусты - Ноют все. Поной и ты.
CoBlue Posted November 3, 2012 Author Posted November 3, 2012 If you are manily trained for instrument flight, without looking outside of the cockpit, than velocity vector is not needed that much. Was that the reason the "early" Russian huds didn't have FPV?. I always thought Russian Airforce embraced Close Air Combat & isn't FPV an advantage then?....maybe I'm wrong:) Anyway seems that the "new" Russian huds have FPV....but still wondering why the "old" ones didn't? Like in this vid from 2008. i7 8700k@4.7, 1080ti, DDR4 32GB, 2x SSD , HD 2TB, W10, ASUS 27", TrackIr5, TMWH, X-56, GProR.
marcos Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 As proof of why the FPV is better look at the DCS Su-25T training clips. The trainer basically says to use the autopilot for route following because it does a far better job than trying to do it manually. He then shows it being done manually and makes a pig's ear of it.
ФрогФут Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 Was that the reason the "early" Russian huds didn't have FPV?. Don't think so. But vector would create some problems, cause it works with direct attitude symbology, while in SU the reversed attitude symology was common. ....but still wondering why the "old" ones didn't? Like in this vid from 2008. Su-25SM is not old. It is from 00s. "Я ошеломлён, но думаю об этом другими словами", - некий гражданин Ноет котик, ноет кротик, Ноет в небе самолетик, Ноют клумбы и кусты - Ноют все. Поной и ты.
aaron886 Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 If you are manily trained for instrument flight, without looking outside of the cockpit, than velocity vector is not needed that much. Not entirely true. It's an excellent cue. There is a reason why modern HUD systems for transport category aircraft all utilize a flight path vector... it's better technology. Russia traditionally has horrible avionics and ergonomics, although they're starting to join the "new wave."
aaron886 Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 As proof of why the FPV is better look at the DCS Su-25T training clips. The trainer basically says to use the autopilot for route following because it does a far better job than trying to do it manually. He then shows it being done manually and makes a pig's ear of it. That doesn't mean an FPV will make a crap pilot into a good pilot. I would suggest that if you can't fly it without the FPV, you can't really fly it with one.
VAOZoky Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 Other then landing what is it good for? I'm asking seriously because i don't even notice that there isn't one in my Su-33 :) Intel Core i5 2500k @ 4.2Ghz, 8GB Kingston HyperX @1.6GHz, Ati Radeon HD7870 2GB GDDR5, 19' 1440x900 screen
aaron886 Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 Other then landing what is it good for? I'm asking seriously because i don't even notice that there isn't one in my Su-33 :) Landing/takeoff, establishing a climb/descent angle (or nil angle,) visual representation of angle of attack and sideslip, general precision.
monotwix Posted November 4, 2012 Posted November 4, 2012 IRS/INS based Terrain Avoidance system, how did that happen? I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully.
vanir Posted November 4, 2012 Posted November 4, 2012 Coming from WW2 era warbirds (and metric country) to the modern jets personally I simply find the Russian HUD/systems far more intuitive than US ones in FC2, I fly Flankers over Eagles because I'd have to pretty much start all over again to get Eagle info intuitive, where I just jump in any of the Russian birds and everything is right where/how I expect it. I like the radar/fire control system better, all of it. Not to say the Eagle stuff isn't more technically sound, but I'd have to start all over again to learn it from scratch, but the Russian stuff is just how it should be with little or no familiarity, despite cyrillic (which I use, but can't read Russian or anything), I don't need to know how to read cyrillic, I know what all the symbols mean figuratively because the things I expect to be displayed are and right where/how I expect them. I find much less distraction from controlling the plane this way, and would need many more hours to get the same proficiency in an Eagle. So maybe there is something to what was posted about the Russian system being more intuitive for instrument fliers, or older school generic training. The previous generation of Floggers were even worse, I don't think they even had a HDD fitted to the fighter/interceptors, just limited HUD projection for fire control and nav by steam dials.
GGTharos Posted November 4, 2012 Posted November 4, 2012 ... you're going to be looking at your HUD during 'close combat'? ... interesting :) I always thought Russian Airforce embraced Close Air Combat & isn't FPV an advantage then?....maybe I'm wrong:) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
marcos Posted November 4, 2012 Posted November 4, 2012 (edited) That doesn't mean an FPV will make a crap pilot into a good pilot. I would suggest that if you can't fly it without the FPV, you can't really fly it with one. I can fly it, it's just s***. In the case of the DCS Su-25T, it also seems to be based on the path rather than the point, so if you were to come at the path perpendicularly after a detour, it gets confusing. Sorry but FPV is far better. Edited November 4, 2012 by 159th_Viper Rule 1.1 Profanity
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