How to detect and counter an incoming IR SAM?

[Hoggorm]

Hi,

 

I struggle a lot dealing with infrared, heat seeking missiles due to several facts:

 

It is fairly easy to understand that I'm being shot at with a radar guided missile, since I first will have a threat displayed on the RWR. Then it will lock its radar on me, and a missile is detected by the MWS. I can now be rather sure that a missile is inbound me so I start evasive actions, drop chaff and hopefully avoids the missile.

 

With IR missiles though, I'll suddenly get a missile warning detect by the MWS, with no previous warnings. I have no idea whether this is a missile shot at someone else, maybe it is a maverick fired by my wingman or another A-10? Or maybe it is an anti tank missile shot from a tank towards another. Now of course I could start popping flares and start evasive actions, but this could lead to a lot of unnecessary evasive actions by me in a mission where there are a lot of missiles fired. Also - I do not have an unlimited amount of flares...

 

I know I should start looking for an incoming missile; however without track view (or whatever it is called) I have to use the joystick top hap for that. It is unfortunately not very effective...

 

My question is basically - how do I know that an IR missile is fired at me? Or how do I know that the missile is NOT fired at me?

[sungsam]

MARK I Eyeballs !

[Evil.Bonsai]

You don't know, and should pretty much make immediate evasive action and start dropping flares until you KNOW you're not being shot at OR have completely evaded the missile. IR missiles being what they are, they're fairly short range. If you do the above, are not falling out of the sky in pieces and are not hearing MORE MWS alerts (in which case, start all over again with the evading/flares) within 10-15 seconds, you're PROBABLY going to be ok. Maybe.

[PE_Tigar]

You don't know, that's a simple answer. If you don't want to get shot down you need to be paranoid :). In short - MANPADS and short-range IR AAMs are annoying. What I generally do is make sure I minimize the time I spend near or over hostile troops and vehicles, drop LGB's and bombs in general from 10000 feet plus in CCRP mode, and pop flares, turn and wiggle whenever I can reasonably expect there's a MANPADS or similar nearby. Also, use stand-off weapons on air defense assets as a priority.

 

And yes, TrackIR helps with SA, there's no way around it. Maybe use padlock?

[Hoggorm]

Maybe use padlock?

 

What is padlock?

[Stuka]

That's where mutual support comes in place.

[PE_Tigar]

What is padlock?

 

Umm, how do I explain this - it's a kind of a snap view that locks automatically onto a pre-determined object type. Look it up in options/controls/views (I think) for any airplane. I don't use it, so I'm not sure if one exists for missiles.

[WildBillKelsoe]

Most IR MANPADs are 5 clicks range. Stay above 8000 feet and away from suspected zones for at least 8 clicks.

 

Pay attention to JTAC remarks for MANPADS and scan where he tells you from target points.

 

Back to topic.

 

how do I know that an IR missile is fired at me?

 

Your wingman will shout, 2 SAM Launch XX Oclock.. If no wingman available, you can't...

 

Or how do I know that the missile is NOT fired at me?

 

If you're away enough, you probably will see its white streak piercing AO, and a shitload of flashes from AAA firing on whoever is stupid to stoop that down.

[Cookie]

If there is any way at all for you to cough up the cash, go ahead and get TrackIR. It´s a total gamechanger.

 

Real pilots try to survive by keeping their head on a constant swivel and maintaining situational awareness at all times, and without TrackIR that is almost impossible to do.

[Ironhand]

My 2 cents. As a matter of practice, I don't spend much time worrying about IR SAMs. As WildBill suggests, fly as much as possible either outside of their range entirely, or failing that, try to stay at the outer margins of their engagement zone. That way if they do launch, they will have limited energy for maneuvering by the time they get to you.

 

As far as spotting them is concerned, don't waste your time. Most of the ones that are a real threat will either be launched while you're almost directly over them or just as you pass, assuming you are at a decent altitude in the first place.

 

Never fly in a straight line except on the run in, when over areas where IR SAMs are likely to be a threat. If you are keeping to their outer margins either via altitude or range or ideally both, then that limited maneuvering will run them out of energy before they can hurt you, anyway. About the only time I use flares is when I am flying in a straight line down in their zone and/or as I climb out of the target area.

 

 

Rich

[Hoggorm]

Umm, how do I explain this - it's a kind of a snap view that locks automatically onto a pre-determined object type. Look it up in options/controls/views (I think) for any airplane. I don't use it, so I'm not sure if one exists for missiles.

 

I tried this. There is one for All missiles padlock and one for Threat missile padlock.

I created a quick mission with a MANPAD and when he fired a missile I tried both of these. Unfortunately nothing happened, so I was not able to see any missile. Maybe I was using it incorrectly?

 

 

Your wingman will shout, 2 SAM Launch XX Oclock.. If no wingman available, you can't...

 

Unfortunately my wingman is a friend of mine who struggle with the same issues as I do...

 

If there is any way at all for you to cough up the cash, go ahead and get TrackIR. It´s a total gamechanger.

 

I do not know anything about TrackIR unfortunately. What version of it do I need? Is 5.0 the latest? Is everything needed included in the package, or do I need something extra?

[Evil.Bonsai]

I do not know anything about TrackIR unfortunately. What version of it do I need? Is 5.0 the latest? Is everything needed included in the package, or do I need something extra?

 

I believe that's the latest. and yes, everything you'd need is in the package. Except a hat; you'll need a cap of some sort (typical baseball-type)

 

Believe me, trackir is AWESOME. I cannot imagine ever having to fly without it again.

[WildBillKelsoe]

I believe that's the latest. and yes, everything you'd need is in the package. Except a hat; you'll need a cap of some sort (typical baseball-type)

 

Believe me, trackir is AWESOME. I cannot imagine ever having to fly without it again.

 

not only its awesome, it a requirement to fly this sim, dammit!!! :thumbup:

[Ironhand]

I tried this. There is one for All missiles padlock and one for Threat missile padlock.

I created a quick mission with a MANPAD and when he fired a missile I tried both of these. Unfortunately nothing happened, so I was not able to see any missile. Maybe I was using it incorrectly?...

Once upon a far distant time, you pressed the key and your view auto-magically snapped to the threat. Then it was considered a cheat and, in the interest of realism, it was altered so that you had to be looking in the right direction before it would lock your view. I don;t know if that's the way it still works in the current sim.

 

 

Rich

[112th_Rossi]

If I suspect MANPADs in the target area I give it a good old look with the TGP and Eyeball MK1 before I run in.

 

I also set up a CSM program to dispense a flare every second for 10 seconds or so as I approach the target, then I egress quickly, dispensing flares along the way

[mnrty]

Just as Rossi said, i think i would do the same, if it's a known threat search for him before you move any closer, and if you cant see him, set up a CMS program to drop flares regularly if your by your self.

If you are flying with a wingman that is a real person not AI, what we do in my squad is space out our formation by a couple of miles atleast, then as the lead ingress, nr2 use MK1 to spot any missile launch. Takes a bit of practice, but once you get it in your system it works really good.

 

Hope it helps

Mnrty

[mjeh]

Unfortunately my wingman is a friend of mine who struggle with the same issues as I do...

 

ehehe, priceless

 

I do not know anything about TrackIR unfortunately. What version of it do I need? Is 5.0 the latest? Is everything needed included in the package, or do I need something extra?

 

You absolutely have to get TrackIR if you fly DCS A-10. There is no way around it - the difference really is that big. Try it for one flight and you'll know what I mean. I'm PMing you the link to a good retailer in Norway.

Edited November 12, 2012 by mjeh

[Yurgon]

Shit happens in real life just as well. Excerpt from "Hellfire" (by Ed Macy), when a B-1B is flying a low show of force pass:

When it appeared, it flew over the mountains at 5,000 feet and crossed Now Zad from south to north. It passed between us with little drama until it nosed up and exposed its engines to the town. The second it opened them up to climb away I nearly shit myself.

'Missile launch short range left eleven o'clock,' Bitching Betty screamed at me.

'Missile launch,' I shouted to Jon over the radio.

'Missile launch too,' he shouted back. My mouth turned to liquid aluminium and my scrotum shrivelled.

'SAMbush...'

The second the Bitch said it, I started counting down. Flares were pouring off both sides of my Apache; my eyes were peeled, scanning the sky for streaks of smoke heading towards me. [...]

Apparently, the Apache's MWS mistook the Bone's engines for a missile launch, scaring the shit out of their crews.

 

Why should it be any easier in our simulated environment?

Edited November 12, 2012 by Yurgon
Typo

[PFunk1606688187]

Its pretty simple in DCS. If everyone you're flying with calls "Rifle" when they fire a missile then you should have little issue figuring out when its a false alarm or a genuine scrotum shriveling moment.

 

As always, it seems the solution to the toughest problem is better teamwork and lots and lots of comms.

[Moa]

I find the following tactic very useful when you have a human wingman.

 

Adopt trail formation at the Initial Point (about 10 nm from the target area). The lead aircraft aircraft goes in a "shooter" and the trailing goes "cover". The trailing aircraft has two objectives:

1) keep sight on the shooter, and

2) look for AAA or missile launches on the shooter - and call out when he sees them (and probably an imperative, "Break left! flare! missile 3 o clock low")

 

If you are not hearing warnings from your cover then the missile is not aimed at you. This especially works when other players are not on comms or not calling "Rifle" for their shots.

 

Once the shooter is out of missiles you both extend back to the IP, swap over roles and the previous cover is now free to shoot with someone spotting for launches near him.

 

This is the ground attack equivalent of air-to-air attacker and wingman (where the wingman has the exact same roles: keep visual on lead and watch for threats).

 

With more practice you can swap between shooter and cover roles quite quickly as the situation arises. The important thing is that if both of you are concentrated solely on attacking then you are vulnerable to lots of threats.

 

Make one guy offensive and one in a defensive posture and you will both kill more targets overall and both make it back. This is why Western combat aircraft *always* plan to work in units of pairs or multiples of pairs for such "search and destroy missions". Pre-planned target missions appear to be run differently, with all attacks occurring simultaneously from multiple directions (make "one pass, and haul ass" outta there).

 

Plus it is a lot of fun to work together as as team :)

Edited November 12, 2012 by Moa

[112th_Rossi]

Hmm nothing beats not getting shot at. All very well having cover formations but thats no garantee of keeping your buddy safe.

 

Better to have two pairs of eyes looking for threats first and eliminating/avoiding them before going for the main objective.

[Moa]

Hmm nothing beats not getting shot at. All very well having cover formations but thats no garantee of keeping your buddy safe.

 

Better to have two pairs of eyes looking for threats first and eliminating/avoiding them before going for the main objective.

 

Well, one day you come across an target zone with more threats than you have missiles for. You can't kill all targets. In a multi-player tournament quite often you'll only have a few minutes over the target area where you top cover is overhead. You have to kill your *targets* (boring stuff like trucks and tanks) and don't have the time nor stores to wipe every last SHORAD off the map. That's why it is good to mix it up and practice the quick striking team tactics, from time to time :)

[Hoggorm]

Interesting feedback from all. Thank you!

 

Do you use manual, semi or full auto on the CMS?

 

I've used semi mostly as it changes the jammer to correct type and selects a program based on SAM launching a missile. However I do not find it to be working very well with IR missiles. It does not change into a flare program...

 

Auto I find useless as it will empty my chaff and flare before I even get close to a threat.

 

Finally manual I find difficult to use in the heat of battle. It might just be a training issue though..?

[PFunk1606688187]

I usually set it to AUTO when I'm in a known IR SAM area just because I know that it usually takes a second or two to just react, and every edge helps when the missile is gonna hit you in fewer than 5 seconds.

 

I never leave it on any longer than when I'm doing an attack run through an IR SAM area though, for the same reason most people use Semi.

[Hoggorm]

I usually set it to AUTO when I'm in a known IR SAM area just because I know that it usually takes a second or two to just react, and every edge helps when the missile is gonna hit you in fewer than 5 seconds.

 

I never leave it on any longer than when I'm doing an attack run through an IR SAM area though, for the same reason most people use Semi.

 

Will it change to a flare program then? I've never seen it do so. It usually stays at program B