For when you run out of ammo

[atoll1]

I was flying a guns only dogfight against 2 Su-27s, and being the poor shot that I am, used up all my ammo without getting either Su-27 shot down. So what did I do, thought I'd use my plane's airbrake or tail to knock off one of the Su-27's wings to see what happens.

 

Approaching...

 

As you can see, knocked off my tail...

 

But got 'em...

 

Then thought that if I could do this, I could try something similar with the other Su-27...so headed straight for him...

 

Nicked my nosecone, but got him...

 

The neat thing is that she still flies...a little harder to control, but I could make it to base...if I knew where the closest airbase is! (I hope ED doesn't change this feature of the F-15!!:smilewink: - I seem to recall a real F-15 driver (Israeli?) that landed his plane despite some serious damage)

 

So how do you figure out where the airbases are from in-cockpit?:huh:

Edited January 16, 2013 by atoll1

[St3v3f]

Ask ATC for a bearing to the base

[P3CFE]

Bold technique, !!, but i bet you got a lot of explaining to do during afterflight beer, and de-brief ;).

[SkateZilla]

i seriously doubt an Airbrake surface could take off a wing rated for 9-15Gs

[Darkwolf]

Once, i fought with a Mig29A against a couple of P51. I shot down the first quite easily with missiles, but the second avoided all my other missiles. I tried to shot him down with canons but he quickly damaged me. Ok, i'm no good :)

 

Finally out of ammo the battle ended in a mid air collision in which i survived, not him.

[SkateZilla]

please do not bring battlefield 3 tactics to DCS.

[seikdel]

 

Fun fact about the Ka-50: It has an ejection seat!

Fun fact about the AH-64: It doesn't!

[zipdigital]

please do not bring battlefield 3 tactics to DCS.

 

Ha! Well put. And while I agree...

 

 

DCS's attention to detail and realism is where the sim shines. Pulling off a flight perfectly and accomplishing mission goals and returning safely give an incredible feeling of accomplishment.

 

...but every once in a while a healthy dose of alcohol and insane aerobatics is the ticket.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with Skatezilla though, please don't show up to a multiplayer server and expect jet ramming to be acceptable, or enjoyable. It will instead be frowned upon harder than ever recorded in the history of frowning.

 

To the OP: Nice surgical maneuvering. :)

[atoll1]

Ha! Well put. And while I agree...

 

 

DCS's attention to detail and realism is where the sim shines. Pulling off a flight perfectly and accomplishing mission goals and returning safely give an incredible feeling of accomplishment.

 

...but every once in a while a healthy dose of alcohol and insane aerobatics is the ticket.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with Skatezilla though, please don't show up to a multiplayer server and expect jet ramming to be acceptable, or enjoyable. It will instead be frowned upon harder than ever recorded in the history of frowning.

 

To the OP: Nice surgical maneuvering. :)

 

No worries about that! It was late at night...:smilewink:

[GGTharos]

Do you also seriously doubt that a bunch of 4 gram cubes can take a wing off? Or perhaps a continuous rod :)

 

i seriously doubt an Airbrake surface could take off a wing rated for 9-15Gs

[SkateZilla]

when you put it that way... lemme rephrase..

 

 

I doubt the Speed brake surface with a combined closure rate of at least 600 knots minimum head 2 head or about 50-75 knots sneaking up from behind, would take off the opponents wing WITHOUT suffering severe damage of it's own.

 

The Vertical Stab seems to have gotten the worst end of that collision

[GGTharos]

It'll always suffer damage, there's no question there. My point is that you do not need a huge amount of speed to cause severe damage. 50kt overtake is easily enough - if you recall the incident with the RC-130 (I think) near China, one aircraft went down into the sea, the other was forced to land, and the overtake was probably quite a bit less than 50Kt.

[roob]

i seriously doubt an Airbrake surface could take off a wing rated for 9-15Gs

 

 

please do not bring battlefield 3 tactics to DCS.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmDYdfb02tc

 

 

'nuff said.

Edited January 17, 2013 by roob

[SkateZilla]

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmDYdfb02tc

 

 

'nuff said.

 

 

Nuff Said?, Bull, Show me a youtube Video of Two 30 Million Dollar Fighters Purposely trying to run into each other? You Cant, so dont.

 

Anyone can find a Youtube Video that shows a similar concept, whether or not it directly applies to the Time Frame and Actual use, it another story.

 

Modern Day Fighters do not Ram Each other, this isnt WWII for cripes sake. Pilots now are taught to flee and save the aircraft, not go all renegade BF3 Style.

 

 

 

 

In that 2nd Video, a Pylon detaches and hit's a trailing A-4, the perspective makes them look close, but the A-4 is a about 20 feet trailing,

the closure rate of that pylon was prolly about 30 knots, and there was an explosion that blew off the wing. (fuel line or something if i remember the report details). Pilot tried to pull away but didnt have enough time.

 

I had a Clearer Video of that Some where, when you enhance it further, you see a Mk 83 Snake eye with drag plates deployed still attached to the pylon.

So it's a good 300 lbs easy of hardened explosive composites and not a metal plate of an Airbrake.

 

An A-4's Wing is not re-enforced like a SU-27s either.

 

 

 

 

 

That, And I think if you ripped off one of your Vertical Stabilizers, you would not be able to easily line up and accurately collide with another aircraft at a closure rate of 500+knots and continue to fly away.

 

F-15C Suffers from lack of AFM and Damage modeling.

With one Vert. Stab missing, you'd have serious YAW control issues, and even more problems pulling high Gs and doing vertical maneuvers.

Edited January 17, 2013 by SkateZilla

[SkateZilla]

Further More, if you run out of Gun Ammo, then you need to practice conserving Ammo or knowing when to fight or flee.

 

if you only have 100 rounds and 2 SU-27s coming, in a guns only battle, it's time to go.

 

if you waste all your rounds trying to shoot down 2 SU-27s, that obviously dont have the pilot skills to work together in a 2 on 1 situation, then you need to work on better Placement of rounds to get the most effect. which goes back to AIMING.

[GGTharos]

I had a Clearer Video of that Some where, when you enhance it further, you see a Mk 83 Snake eye with drag plates deployed still attached to the pylon.

So it's a good 300 lbs easy of hardened explosive composites and not a metal plate of an Airbrake.

 

Actually it was a fuel tank separation test. It's a fuel tank, not a bomb.

 

An A-4's Wing is not re-enforced like a SU-27s either.

 

The A-4 can carry a very significant A2G load on those wings, and pull some g's with it. It's a pretty strong wing.

 

With one Vert. Stab missing, you'd have serious YAW control issues, and even more problems pulling high Gs and doing vertical maneuvers.

 

Would you, or is that your assumption? You still have a vertical stabilizer.

[roob]

Oh lord... This guy...

 

Just because a wing can withstand forces of more than 9 G doesn't make it any less susceptible to physical damage in ways it wasn't designed to sustain. But, you may believe what you want, my good sir.

 

I may also have misinterpreted you, but you seem to be taking this matter with people just having fun ramming planes while they're still learning much too serious. And I can't understand why.

[SkateZilla]

Actually it was a fuel tank separation test. It's a fuel tank, not a bomb.

 

 

 

The A-4 can carry a very significant A2G load on those wings, and pull some g's with it. It's a pretty strong wing.

 

 

 

Would you, or is that your assumption? You still have a vertical stabilizer.

 

Oh lord... This guy...

 

Just because a wing can withstand forces of more than 9 G doesn't make it any less susceptible to physical damage in ways it wasn't designed to sustain. But, you may believe what you want, my good sir.

 

I may also have misinterpreted you, but you seem to be taking this matter with people just having fun ramming planes while they're still learning much too serious. And I can't understand why.

 

 

I agree with all points, I just like to be slightly argumentative.. So here goes...

 

 

-Wings designed to withstand force one way Dont re-act Well to force in another.. I know, i just didnt explain myself very well.

 

-Fuel Tank, Snake Eye, either or, it's a large chunk hitting a wing, all it takes is a small impact in the right spot, and windforce from speed and lift can tear the wing right off like it was a peice of paper.

(Take a brick and throw it out your window on the highway at 55 mph, so it hits the car 2 car lengths behind you, and tell me it doesnt screw up some stuff, lol)

 

-What's the maximum force an F-15 Airbrake can withstand anyway before it gets ripped off?,

That was my argument; being deployed at 300-400 Knots, and then hitting another plane should be enough force to knock it off, or damage it so it no longer operates as intended.

 

 

-Missing a Vertical Stab is gonna cause YAW Issues as in all of your YAW Control will be off center and diminished severly, easily trimmed out if you're in a level flight heading home. But in combat, doing vertical high g maneuvers, the side slipping and responsiveness would keep you from accurately flying your plane into another the way you'd expect in those screen shots.

 

-An A-4 Pilot wouldnt pull a 9 G manuever with a full wing load :), the stress from that would tear the wing off, i think they rate the wing as 8 G Clean, and like 5 G Loaded. if you want to test, there's an A-4J for sale, you can buy it an I'll fly it for ya. just make sure to make the check out to my family, cuz i prolly wont survive. :p

 

 

My main peeve with the entire thread was the Endorsing/Promoting/Encouraging/Suggesting the Ramming BF3 style when you run out of ammo, just bug out, and get away, re-arm somewhere and come back.

 

 

So I'll gripe and gripe to convince people from doing it :) (<< yeah i know, conduct unbecoming, but hey, there's only so much BF3 a man can take, i play DCS to get away from that stuff; If i wanna be Rammed, I'll play BF3.)

Edited January 17, 2013 by SkateZilla

[GGTharos]

I agree with all points, I just like to be slightly argumentative.. So here goes...

 

You do indeed :D

 

-Fuel Tank, Snake Eye, either or, it's a large chunk hitting a wing, all it takes is a small impact in the right spot, and windforce from speed and lift can tear the wing right off like it was a peice of paper.

(Take a brick and throw it out your window on the highway at 55 mph, so it hits the car 2 car lengths behind you, and tell me it doesnt screw up some stuff, lol)

 

Yep, generally speaking deformation of wing = bad.

 

-What's the maximum force an F-15 Airbrake can withstand anyway before it gets ripped off?,

That was my argument; being deployed at 300-400 Knots, and then hitting another plane should be enough force to knock it off, or damage it so it no longer operates as intended.

 

I don't know how much force there is against the airbrake, but I suppose I could calculate it. It's quite a lot though - on the other hand, it is hydraulically limited, the piston just wouldn't be able to hold the brake up at some point. I don't know if supersonic airflow causes trouble for using the brake, but I know its use is inhibited once you go over the mach. You can use it at every speed under that, though, as long as you're not inhibited by AoA ;)

 

-Missing a Vertical Stab is gonna cause YAW Issues as in all of your YAW Control will be off center and diminished severly, easily trimmed out if you're in a level flight heading home. But in combat, doing vertical high g maneuvers, the side slipping and responsiveness would keep you from accurately flying your plane into another the way you'd expect in those screen shots.

 

Yes it will affect lateral stability, but it's hard to say how exactly. This has nothing to do with how many g's you're pulling, it's all about angle of attack, either alpha or beta.

 

-An A-4 Pilot wouldnt pull a 9 G manuever with a full wing load :), the stress from that would tear the wing off, i think they rate the wing as 8 G Clean, and like 5 G Loaded. if you want to test, there's an A-4J for sale, you can buy it an I'll fly it for ya. just make sure to make the check out to my family, cuz i prolly wont survive. :p

 

5 g when loaded with 3000lbs of stuff per wing. :)

 

 

My main peeve with the entire thread was the Endorsing/Promoting/Encouraging/Suggesting the Ramming BF3 style when you run out of ammo, just bug out, and get away, re-arm somewhere and come back.

 

Not a big deal generally speaking. There's plenty of 'pet peeve' videos, but I've rarely seen anyone attempt a ramming tactic. Most people just don't think of it and aren't interested in it. And those who are, either never get close enough or find out that BFM works for more things than just gunnery :)

 

So I'll gripe and gripe to convince people from doing it :) (<< yeah i know, conduct unbecoming, but hey, there's only so much BF3 a man can take, i play DCS to get away from that stuff; If i wanna be Rammed, I'll play BF3.)

 

I just don't see it happening.

[SkateZilla]

that being said, I'll wave my white flag and fore-go any further griping in this thread :p

 

cheers.

[Rotareneg]

WWII style accidental ramming:

 

 

Next time just make sure it's an enemy plane, not an RAF bomber...

 

Oh, and try to avoid the utility poles, they hurt:

 

[SkateZilla]

just dont go landing your F-22 with the landing Gear up :p

Edited January 18, 2013 by SkateZilla

[karambiatos]

 

 

'nuff said.

 

 

 

starting 0:20

 

only it wasnt a panel, but a 250pound bomb

 

and DCS has some issues considering midari collisions, a friend of mine with an a10 hit my KA-50s rotors in once with the tip of his wing and it ripped the wing away from the fuselage. when you colide with another plane its feels really random as to how the game will calculate the damage

Edited January 18, 2013 by karambiatos

[Col. Clark GRUNT Half]

So how do you figure out where the airbases are from in-cockpit?:huh:

 

As a pilot I rarely get off the pit during my flying time (being an airborne ranger is totally a different story), so knowing the airports is part of the pre-take-off-briefing, is not it? Know some geo (like the ground pounders do).

[WildBillKelsoe]

that reminds me of when I first started flying DCS A-10C.. I had everything, but lowered the gear by mistake, and the left gear struck (and killed) a T-55...