Air-to-Air Missile Discussion

[*Rage*]

Well, when it is, it will make thing interesting. I have a question for you though: Is R-27ER seeker active right after launch or only in terminal phase? If the latter is the case, implementing this into DCS would definitely increase the Pk.

 

Not sure but judging by some of the miss-tracks Ive seen (dead off the rail) I'd say it was right after launch.

[Svend_Dellepude]

I thinks he means IRL.

[Kuky]

GG, IASGATG, sorry guys but I realise I made an error in my principle, I see now that given all conditions are equal (speed, altitude etc) for both 120 and ER, the 120 will decelerate a tad slower (as it has little advantage in highe ratio of drag vs ratio of inertia - the 2 forces working against each other)

 

so, taking into account the ER accelerates faster and is faster missile, especially if at higher altitude (where drag has less influence to slow the missile down) but decelerates bit faster, either missile could be longer ranged or equal, but as 120 is lighter I would say at terminal stage the 120 is possibly more manouverbale... but then again the ER has larger fins... so bloody hell... too many factors :(

[GGTharos]

GG, IASGATG, sorry guys but I realise I made an error in my principle, I see now that given all conditions are equal (speed, altitude etc) for both 120 and ER, the 120 will decelerate a tad slower (as it has little advantage in highe ratio of drag vs ratio of inertia - the 2 forces working against each other)

 

Yep, now add loft. I think you understand what this does :)

 

so, taking into account the ER accelerates faster and is faster missile, especially if at higher altitude (where drag has less influence to slow the missile down) but decelerates bit faster, either missile could be longer ranged or equal, but as 120 is lighter I would say at terminal stage the 120 is possibly more manouverbale... but then again the ER has larger fins... so bloody hell... too many factors :(

For maneuverability, generally split-canard or tail control fins allow for greater maneuverability (specifically, higher AoA capability) compared to canard and wing-control missiles.

 

In the end, what matters in the terminal stage is how much g you can pull. If you consider those missiles at a 10km distance, the AIM-120 has a minimum of a 30g limit, and the R-27ER 24g. This is a structural limit. How much g you can actually pull is controlled by aerodynamics, and most missiles at peak speed will easily exceed their structural limit if they were so programmed. Of course, at their maximum ranges their maneuverability is also very limited - you might be able to pull 9g for 1 second right at Rmax for example. That lets you defeat a target that can do a jink, like a last second pull-up, but that's about it.

 

Altitude also plays a factor - the higher you are, the faster you need to be going to pull the same g, again up to a limit because the rarer the air gets, the less control you can exert with moving surfaces.

[IASGATG]

GG, IASGATG, sorry guys but I realise I made an error in my principle, I see now that given all conditions are equal (speed, altitude etc) for both 120 and ER, the 120 will decelerate a tad slower (as it has little advantage in highe ratio of drag vs ratio of inertia - the 2 forces working against each other)

 

so, taking into account the ER accelerates faster and is faster missile, especially if at higher altitude (where drag has less influence to slow the missile down) but decelerates bit faster, either missile could be longer ranged or equal, but as 120 is lighter I would say at terminal stage the 120 is possibly more manouverbale... but then again the ER has larger fins... so bloody hell... too many factors :(

 

It's okay buddy, there is a lot of shit that goes into this crap. :) <3

 

Just trying to get my god damn missile into this god damn game.

[Kenan]

R-27ER is pretty effective online. And that's what matters. ;)

[pepin1234]

R-27ER is pretty effective online. And that's what matters. ;)

 

R-27ER is only balanced in range (downgraded, cuz this Missile have more range) compared with the Aim-120.

[pepin1234]

Well, when it is, it will make thing interesting. I have a question for you though: Is R-27ER seeker active right after launch or only in terminal phase? If the latter is the case, implementing this into DCS would definitely increase the Pk.

 

 

Yes, actually the R-27ER use the his head seeker just after Launch, inclusive with warning Launch for the F-15. Thats pretty easy for them and is not real.

 

At the Moment of Launch R-27ER use an inertial/Radio cerrector (70% of trayectory) after that the R-27ER pass to the semi-active head seeker and only after that the F-15 must get a Missile guided warning.

 

Actually they are Aware at the first Moment of launch

[Bimbac]

Yes, actually the R-27ER use the his head seeker just after Launch, inclusive with warning Launch for the F-15. Thats pretty easy for them and is not real.

 

At the Moment of Launch R-27ER use an inertial/Radio cerrector (70% of trayectory) after that the R-27ER pass to the semi-active head seeker and only after that the F-15 must get a Missile guided warning.

 

Actually they are Aware at the first Moment of launch

 

In real life, as far as I know, R-27ER should activate the seeker only in terminal phase (chaff countermeasure), also it is INS/Datalink (Mid-course updates) capable. However, a target shouldn't get any Launch warning, because, as I stated already before, there is no change in waveform, what-so-ever, from the launching aircraft, only STT lock. Since the missile has an SARH seeker, it is completely passive, i.e. doesn't emit anything, except for the proximity fuse, but that cannot be recognized by RWR.

 

There is a reply from one of the developers on this forum that Russian SARH missiles produce a Launch warning (in contrast with reality) to make it easier for the players. I my opinion, it spoils the simulation very badly. Either people want it realistic, than make it so without exception, or not. Then there are other games, but these simplifications, in my opinion, don't belong to DCS, at least not in the Simulation level. The other side is the capability of the developers to make a realistic simulation. And I believe that it would take a much larger team a tremendous effort to simulate all aspects of modern aerial warfare, including real ECM techniques, Radar modes, Comms jamming and deception, and things like that, combined with the fact that most of this stuff is highly classified. So I accept a certain level of "downgraded" capabilities, but that shouldn't go for principles.

 

I'd be happy if DCS World simulated the environment properly, like IADS, GCI, Datalink, AWACS/EWR, ATC Comms, etc. That would recreate a current combat environment in much more realistic way. Some steps have already been taken, but the progress is very slow. I think that without an RF/IR Physics simulation engine, we would never see radars, missiles and sensors simulated properly to their real life counterparts. But I'm still hoping.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Bimbac

[falcon_120]

In real life, as far as I know, R-27ER should activate the seeker only in terminal phase (chaff countermeasure), also it is INS/Datalink (Mid-course updates) capable. However, a target shouldn't get any Launch warning, because, as I stated already before, there is no change in waveform, what-so-ever, from the launching aircraft, only STT lock. Since the missile has an SARH seeker, it is completely passive, i.e. doesn't emit anything, except for the proximity fuse, but that cannot be recognized by RWR.

 

That is a very discussed topic, whether an r27 launch should or should not give a launch warning right away. I off course don't know the answer to this, but I know one history from our spanish pilot flying the hornet in the Kosovo war. This was an article published in a air force special review dedicated to the OTAN air operations during Kosovo.

 

In this article the pilot relate how he took part in the first day of operations, in particular, he and his wingman had to take out the fuel depots in batajnica air base IIRC, the thing is after the F15 from the usaf had made the first sweep, downing some fulcrums, when they proceed to attack they received calls from magic(E3 AWACS) that there were more bandits, right after this the pilot in question tells that he received a spike from a fulcrum in his RWR and after this he was locked, He inmediately started evasive maneuvers because following his words, this could mean an inmediate launch and he swears he saw the flash and the burning motor of missile in the direction of the lock in his rwr(it was at night so the flash was clear).

 

If this is true and not some made up of his mind because of the adrenaline(And what he saw was the launch of a harm from the f16cj or tornados giving sead cover) then at least in the an/alr 69 the spanish hornet are equipped with, the launch of a r27 not always gives a launch warning. At least not in the first phase of his flight.

But it is hard to know what to believe, maybe more modern RWR will give a launch warning inmediately. Only real pilots will know this as the OTAN has been training for many years with german Fulcrums and his radar.

[spyro23]

In real life, as far as I know, R-27ER should activate the seeker only in terminal phase (chaff countermeasure), also it is INS/Datalink (Mid-course updates) capable. However, a target shouldn't get any Launch warning, because, as I stated already before, there is no change in waveform, what-so-ever, from the launching aircraft, only STT lock. Since the missile has an SARH seeker, it is completely passive, i.e. doesn't emit anything, except for the proximity fuse, but that cannot be recognized by RWR.

 

I must admit that I know wery little about radars and missile guidance but it seems strange to me that target should not get any warning.

This would be true for PESA/AESA radar working with SARH missile like on MiG-31/Zaslon/R-33 for sure.

 

I'm finding it hard to believe that STT lock from MiG 29/ Su-27 with mechanically scanned arrays would not give any warning because (as far as I know) in search mode target is painted every few seconds while in STT mode is painted continously, so in theory this would give clear lock indication on targets RWR.

 

Unless you can fire R-27 in TWS mode ?

[Kuky]

It's not that STT lock won't give any warning... it will... but actual missile launch doesn't give a warning that missile is launched... so (from what I've heard from real pilot) is that once you are spiked (STT lock on you) you go evasive as this is considered that missile is/could be fired at you... the way I understood it is that there is no differential warning from STT lock and missile fired.

[falcon_120]

I must admit that I know wery little about radars and missile guidance but it seems strange to me that target should not get any warning.

This would be true for PESA/AESA radar working with SARH missile like on MiG-31/Zaslon/R-33 for sure.

 

I'm finding it hard to believe that STT lock from MiG 29/ Su-27 with mechanically scanned arrays would not give any warning because (as far as I know) in search mode target is painted every few seconds while in STT mode is painted continously, so in theory this would give clear lock indication on targets RWR.

 

Unless you can fire R-27 in TWS mode ?

 

No, you got it wrong. YOU GET A LOCK TONE IN YOUR RWR, the thing is, Should you get a launch warning inmediately after you've been shot? I could be locking you without launching you any missile, you get a lock continous warning tone but if I fire you maybe you shouldn't get the missile launch warning until the last phase of the r27er launch.

[falcon_120]

Too late.. Kuky answered first :)

[pepin1234]

I must admit that I know wery little about radars and missile guidance but it seems strange to me that target should not get any warning.

This would be true for PESA/AESA radar working with SARH missile like on MiG-31/Zaslon/R-33 for sure.

 

I'm finding it hard to believe that STT lock from MiG 29/ Su-27 with mechanically scanned arrays would not give any warning because (as far as I know) in search mode target is painted every few seconds while in STT mode is painted continously, so in theory this would give clear lock indication on targets RWR.

 

Unless you can fire R-27 in TWS mode ?

 

we are talking about guided Missile warning. Of course the target will get a lock warning. In real life They get guided Missile warning only when the semi-active seeker head is active in the last Missile stage.

 

This Feature is not implemented in game, causing an unreal high level Awareness for the F-15 and an exposed dangerous Situation for the Su-27.

[spyro23]

Yes Falcon_120, its clear that there is nothing that warns about actual missile warning and STT does not mean neccesary that missile has ben fired. Same goes to AMRAAM if fired in STT radar mode - you cant be sure until Pitbull.

 

My doubts concern Miech and Rubin radars and Bimbac statement that "a target shouldn't get any Launch warning, because, as I stated already before, there is no change in waveform, what-so-ever, from the launching aircraft, only STT lock"

 

As far as I know (quick google search) Rubin SARH Illumination and main channels use different frequencies within the X band, and are multiplexed in time so even assuming that R-27 can be fired in TWS mode or in STT painting occurs when missile reaches interception point ( unlikely ??) this should give clear indication on targets RWR that its being painted. This is moment when I'm lost - is target data aquisition done only every few seconds because pulses emmited are same like during search?? Is STT same in principle like TWS but limited to 1 target?

 

Bimbac wrote "There is a reply from one of the developers on this forum that Russian SARH missiles produce a Launch warning (in contrast with reality) to make it easier for the players" - that is new to me as I do not recall having such thing like launch warning but I do recall lock warning on my RWR which seems reasonable.

Edited May 27, 2014 by spyro23

[Ragnarok]

...that there were more bandits, right after this the pilot in question tells that he received a spike from a fulcrum in his RWR and after this he was locked, He inmediately started evasive maneuvers because following his words, this could mean an inmediate launch and he swears he saw the flash and the burning motor of missile in the direction of the lock in his rwr(it was at night so the flash was clear).

 

If this is true and not some made up of his mind because of the adrenaline(And what he saw was the launch of a harm from the f16cj or tornados giving sead cover) then at least in the an/alr 69 the spanish hornet are equipped with, the launch of a r27 not always gives a launch warning. At least not in the first phase of his flight.

But it is hard to know what to believe, maybe more modern RWR will give a launch warning inmediately. Only real pilots will know this as the OTAN has been training for many years with german Fulcrums and his radar.

 

Not true. Serbian MiGs did not launch anything during the war. I know about the case. Serbian pilot was Abdul Ehmeti who unexpectedly locked the enemy fighter. He needed few seconds to launch, but the officer for guidance he had ordered an immediate return to base.

Pilot was disappointed.

In the air was the only one, and no more. During the war, at the same time take off a maximum of two fighter.

[GGTharos]

You're flying along in your Su-27 or MiG-29. You've got a target in STT, you select a radar guided missile and you push the missile launch button.

 

What does the radar do?

 

It generates an m-link on the sidelobes. I'll leave it at that.

[Ragnarok]

It's not that STT lock won't give any warning... it will... but actual missile launch doesn't give a warning that missile is launched... so (from what I've heard from real pilot) is that once you are spiked (STT lock on you) you go evasive as this is considered that missile is/could be fired at you... the way I understood it is that there is no differential warning from STT lock and missile fired.

 

Moment of the launch gives changes the width of the radar beam. Semi active guidance depends on distance, not on the level of missile flight. For example, if you launch the 20km, semi active seeker catches the reflection from the target while still attached to the wing. When it launches, the radar beam is introduced into a wide beam, because missile could fall from the cone beam. With a wide beam, guidance is not accurate, and therefore later narrowed the radar beam, when missile in his path stabilized.

There is one other thing that will surprise you here: SARH during their flight can be seen on the radar. Radar tracking missiles. There is also software timer for impact!

[kobac]

I will not play in multiplayer until ED fix the missiles. I don't want to be someone a sitting duck.

[TAW_Blaze]

we are talking about guided Missile warning. Of course the target will get a lock warning. In real life They get guided Missile warning only when the semi-active seeker head is active in the last Missile stage.

 

This Feature is not implemented in game, causing an unreal high level Awareness for the F-15 and an exposed dangerous Situation for the Su-27.

 

If there's a guy within a certain range locking me It's pretty obvious what's going on. If I already knew where he was I can probably tell if he's gonna fire or he's just flying bait, if he's close enough and I didn't know about him before the lock I probably won't take chances and start extending. One could argue that it's unrealistic to reliably judge range from RWR signals, but this is another thing that's just there in the game and to be perfectly honest the russian equipment allows for a much better use of this than the NATO side.

 

Speaking of unreal high level of SA, that's a double edged sword. Aside the broken EWR ghosts you can see on the russians you have godly SA, especially considering how the better Eagle drivers fly. On the other side you have the Eagle with a bunch of 21st century equipment but no datalink that was already fitted back in 80-90s, knowing how most of the russian drivers fly AWACS is not much of a help, rather a big liability, in the end no matter what I'll rely on myself and my wingmen.

 

Be careful what you wish for, once we get some of the stuff that we should already have you might find yourself in an even worse spot.

 

I find it amusing that a lot of russian drivers just present themselves as the victim of ED bias towards the NATO side. Russian jets have a lot of tools to make up for their disadvantages in other departments.

[pepin1234]

 

Be careful what you wish for, once we get some of the stuff that we should already have you might find yourself in an even worse spot.

 

You scare nobody here. Please respect each other, you are not a dictator here to push us to decide what we should wish.

[RIPTIDE]

It's not that STT lock won't give any warning... it will... but actual missile launch doesn't give a warning that missile is launched... so (from what I've heard from real pilot) is that once you are spiked (STT lock on you) you go evasive as this is considered that missile is/could be fired at you... the way I understood it is that there is no differential warning from STT lock and missile fired.

I remember it was said before that in the SPO-15, the spike warning/tone was an automatic thing as the fighter got closer. So at say 2 bars unlit, that would then give a solid tone equivalent to that we have in game as a Spike... (but IRL it may, or may not be a solid lock)

[RIPTIDE]

Moment of the launch gives changes the width of the radar beam. Semi active guidance depends on distance, not on the level of missile flight. For example, if you launch the 20km, semi active seeker catches the reflection from the target while still attached to the wing. When it launches, the radar beam is introduced into a wide beam, because missile could fall from the cone beam. With a wide beam, guidance is not accurate, and therefore later narrowed the radar beam, when missile in his path stabilized.

There is one other thing that will surprise you here: SARH during their flight can be seen on the radar. Radar tracking missiles. There is also software timer for impact!

Fall from the cone beam? This seems as if you were talking about cone/beam riding. Are you sure you said that correct? I can imagine a radar system having a wider beam because of angular speed of the target. I guess this beam remains as such regardless of launch or not.

[NineLine]

You scare nobody here. Please respect each other, you are not a dictator here to push us to decide what we should wish.

 

 

I dont think he was trying to scare anyone, I think he was trying to state that certain things may be under-modelled, and that if they were modelled closer to real-world they might even be more scary than they are.