Defend against the TOW?

[NineLine]

I recently played a CA scenario where 4 M-1s rolled up behind some BMPs and surprise attacked them. Still 3 of the 4 Abrams got waxed. Again it was ATGMs that got them. Pretty unbelievable.

 

For me it's almost like the US armor is a liability in CA engagements. You just want to move them and hide them until you can work over the area with artillery and air assets.

 

It seems that the M1's dont have the same defensive abilities their real life counterparts have, if I am not wrong, it seems that is the biggest issue in tank vs tank in sim.

[Spectre_USA]

It almost seems as if a step backwards to M-60's with Shileligh (sp?) missiles would

be a step forward in the sim.

 

I just don't think the real life advances, like the total walk-over at 73 Easting

just hasn't caught up in this simulation.

 

Saying it is out of beta, with little in the way of missions, let alone a ground

based campaign, borders on the ridiculous.

[Mortifa]

One thing that may be an issue is smoke eats frame rates...

[Hubris]

Shoot and scoot, don't stay in one place too long.

[nickmow]

Or use Challenger :thumbup:

 

 

Or also accept that the Mighty M1 is not indestructible and tactics play a substantial role. Problem with CA is the terrain is pretty flat locally

[whartsell]

It almost seems as if a step backwards to M-60's with Shileligh (sp?) missiles would

be a step forward in the sim.

 

I just don't think the real life advances, like the total walk-over at 73 Easting

just hasn't caught up in this simulation.

 

Saying it is out of beta, with little in the way of missions, let alone a ground

based campaign, borders on the ridiculous.

 

Military channel just had a show about 73 easting a few weaks ago...was interesting

Especially the poor bradly unit that parked right next to a dugin t-72

[NineLine]

Well I tried that, and sadly all my A-10's dropped their Mav's on the first tank I targeted. A little overkill if you ask me....so the problem is how to advance after the air support is out of weapons....

 

I was hoping my arty could drop smoke.

 

As a side note, when ever you have something were the AI go goofy on you, you should submit the track to the bugs thread :)

 

As for smoke, I dont think it will do anything against AI right now. I am sure its the same as clouds right now and the AI can see through those currently.

[Maior]

Well, a bit of info. First, the T-55 doesn't have ATGM, second, early ATGM are useless against Chobham armour, thirdly, a T-55 round can't destroy an M1 of any kind. It's physically impossible. Disable it by shooting the tracks or managing a rear penetration, ok on the first, maybe on the second but to destroy an M1, impossible.

 

4th, Chobham armour was developed to defend against HEAT and is designed to be tougher than the kinetic penetrators available on these rounds. Plus, the layered design of this defence system is different than the more common bonded ceramic/metal plates. In fact, it's protective capabilities mimic those of ERA armour. It's armour is a matrix of nano carbon tubes, depleted Uranium, Steel, ceramics, etc. Each suited to defeat a particular set of rounds.

 

His M1s should roll over T-55s just by moving straight at them presenting their toughest layer and firing at over 3Km away. The T-55 gun would be unable to defeat their armour and the T-55 armour would be blown to bits by the M1s depleted Uranium rounds.

 

Funny story, During Desert Storm, the Turret's front and side armour survived impacts from friendly APFSDS rounds from other Abrams. Rounds that were developed to counter T-72, T-80U and T-90 armour upgrades. The side hull and rear turret were penetrated by friendly fire on two occasions. Still, this point is a bit moot since the Abrams is a tank from another generation with a much better gun than the T-55. Frankly, watching this argument is like watching someone arguing that a MiG-15 could routinely defeat an F-15 in aerial combat. It just doesn't make sense.

 

EDIT: In the 2003 war, the American M1 destroyed 7 Iraqi T-72s without loss of their own at point blank range. The T-72 has a bigger gun than the T-55 and was not able to destroy or disable a single M1 in a frontal engagement.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Maior

[159th_Viper]

The original question was thus:

 

How does a M1 defend against 9M119M anti-tank missiles, launched from a T-80?

[Maior]

The original question was thus:

 

How does a M1 defend against 9M119M anti-tank missiles, launched from a T-80?

 

Ah. I read T-55 somehow... I feel rather stupid :D...

Still, depending on the missile version, the front armour of the M1 could probably defeat older models, while for more recent ones, smoke and manoeuvre.

[Mortifa]

Ah. I read T-55 somehow... I feel rather stupid :D...

Still, depending on the missile version, the front armour of the M1 could probably defeat older models, while for more recent ones, smoke and manoeuvre.

 

I can maneuver, but I got no smoke.....:(

[Maior]

I can maneuver, but I got no smoke.....:(

 

Is there nowhere to go in order to shorten the distance using terrain as cover?

 

At least to 3Km or so. That would give you a fighting chance. I don't know what other assets you have in the area. If you manage to keep the T-80s busy with poor targets (like having IFVs throwing tows at them) and then move your tanks nearer in a pincer move, you might catch those T-80s off guard. Your gun is better than theirs and your armour too. If you have a couple of Apaches you should use them.

[Dudikoff]

Still, depending on the missile version, the front armour of the M1 could probably defeat older models, while for more recent ones, smoke and manoeuvre.

 

Anyway, is it clear which M1 variant is present in the sim? As it's well known that the armor protection varied considerably between the M1, M!IP/MA1A1, M1A1HA, M1A1HC/M1A2 and M1A2SEP. The "M1" 's frontal turret armor and probably even the M1IP/M1A1's could probably be penetrated with the more powerful ATGM variants, not to mention, potential damage to some systems which might render the tank combat-inefficient, but I don't think the sim goes into such detail (yet?).

Edited March 9, 2013 by Dudikoff

[Mule]

Is there nowhere to go in order to shorten the distance using terrain as cover?

 

At least to 3Km or so. That would give you a fighting chance. I don't know what other assets you have in the area. If you manage to keep the T-80s busy with poor targets (like having IFVs throwing tows at them) and then move your tanks nearer in a pincer move, you might catch those T-80s off guard. Your gun is better than theirs and your armour too. If you have a couple of Apaches you should use them.

 

That was the best answer so far.

[Invader ZIM]

This issue keeps cropping up every once in awile, I brought it up last July in this thread with some track files:

 

http://www.ru.wiki.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=91711

 

Best way to play to get more realistic attrition of ground units right now when playing in the ground vehicles is to set the Russian Ground unit AI to "Average", while setting U.S. ground forces on "Highest" And giving the Russian side more units to compensate for the AI setting.

 

Maior's suggestions also hold truth, your going to want to look at the terrain on your map and move the M1's as close as you can to within 3km to ensure good kills on the T-80's.

 

It still drives me nuts that smoke can't be used against the AI, and we still have the limitation of the ground vehicles having a pretty generic armor model with health bars. Hopefully these will be addressed in the future, as right now I use CA to only tell my AI where and when to move the vehicles, too fustrating to pilot the vehicles yet.

 

Only Steel Beasts would provide the more hard core armor and penetration simulator, the glaring defects of the T-80U's lack of thermal sights and relatively low magnification optics, coupled with it's line of sight laser following missile system against a Leopard 2, Challenger 2 or M1A2 become far more obvious in that sim.

[Ripcord]

Or use Challenger :thumbup:

 

 

Or also accept that the Mighty M1 is not indestructible and tactics play a substantial role. Problem with CA is the terrain is pretty flat locally

 

Gee, thanks for that helpful insight Nick.

 

You know, mate, I am pretty sure nobody here made the statement that the M1 tank is somehow superior to the Russian armor. Some struggle with the concept that it is really that much inferior to the Russian armor of any kind or of any era.

 

Thought I would offer up that brief synopsis for you, in order to save you the time of actually reading the thread.

[Tord Hoppe]

My, admittedly limited, experience of the artillery in the game tells me that it's too weak. Having a battery firing on a tank position should force them to move somewhere else. One use of arty is to fire it where you do not want the enemy to be. Anyone that has experienced arty IRL knows that staying means damage or death. This doesn't happen in game, the vehicles sit still. IMO arty is an important tool to a commander that isn't working properly now. Here's hoping for the future!

[Ripcord]

My, admittedly limited, experience of the artillery in the game tells me that it's too weak. Having a battery firing on a tank position should force them to move somewhere else. One use of arty is to fire it where you do not want the enemy to be. Anyone that has experienced arty IRL knows that staying means damage or death. This doesn't happen in game, the vehicles sit still. IMO arty is an important tool to a commander that isn't working properly now. Here's hoping for the future!

 

+1

 

I also made the same observation -- although I'm still learning how to play this, so I thought perhaps I wasn't using my arty correctly. Maybe my fire radius was too wide or too narrow. Usually I start with myself before I immediately get critical of something.

 

But sure enough -- those T-80 tanks didn't bother to reposition at all when under arty fire, even when the MRLS barrage came and I actually killed a couple of them.

[Mortifa]

Okay so this has been, and is a good, discussion.

 

I also am learning how to use this game, and this is from the first SP mission US company advance on Kisolov(?).

 

My first go was a disaster but I had barely managed to figure out how to drive anything or get the proper aiming reticle up.

 

Next mission I did better, and was able to task the A-10's to take out most of the front line tanks, but got spanked by the tanks on my far right on the hill and AA played roughly with my A10's. Lesson learned.

 

So, in the third attempt I tasked the arty to take out the AA as soon as I ranged it. Then I tasked the A-10's to take out the Mi-24's and then sweep in and grind up the front row of tanks.

 

But they still leave about three of them and the ones on the Hill plus the command group just below the hill. A group of about six T80's.

 

I could drive the M1's along the hill to my right, using it to shield me from the T-80's on the Hill, but the first M1 that shows himself, with me in it, can only take out three of the remaining tanks.

 

The A-10's do a great job of clearing the tanks on the right of the bridge (my right, enemy left) but do leave about two behind, one close to the bridge and the other with the BTR.

 

That is where I stopped as the T-80's missiles just owned my M1, I got three of them (the ones on the left of the bridge) but the ones on the right have a good LOS and to advance on them I expose myself to the fire from the hill.

 

Arty is fairly good, though it lacks smoke, but if I target a tank with the Lazar range finder and keep the dispersement within 10 metres, the arty will take out one of their tanks, just takes a bit.

 

I do find the AI is a bit weak, as I can drive by the T80's in the HMMV and raise royal havoc in their rear (ie. spank the AA, command, arty and support vehicles) with the T-80's just watching. But drive a M1 up and they go ape.....

Edited March 10, 2013 by Mortifa

[RIFLE_JTAC_TRAINING]

Ripcord,

 

IRL arty is a huge force multiplier. With some of todays technology available on the battlefield ground radar can find out here incomming rounds are coming from by analysis the bullets trajectory and speed. They are called counter battery radars.

 

With that said Arty uses shoot and scoot tactics. The means by which a arty position FIRES one mission (whatever the desired effect is) and then scoots to the next location and repeat.

 

Absolutely any forces in the way of artillery would move or continue moving. To stand the ground is suicide.

 

Hope that helps.

 

63

[Maior]

Okay so this has been, and is a good, discussion.

 

I also am learning how to use this game, and this is from the first SP mission US company advance on Kisolov(?).

 

My first go was a disaster but I had barely managed to figure out how to drive anything or get the proper aiming reticle up.

 

Next mission I did better, and was able to task the A-10's to take out most of the front line tanks, but got spanked by the tanks on my far right on the hill and AA played roughly with my A10's. Lesson learned.

 

So, in the third attempt I tasked the arty to take out the AA as soon as I ranged it. Then I tasked the A-10's to take out the Mi-24's and then sweep in and grind up the front row of tanks.

 

But they still leave about three of them and the ones on the Hill plus the command group just below the hill. A group of about six T80's.

 

I could drive the M1's along the hill to my right, using it to shield me from the T-80's on the Hill, but the first M1 that shows himself, with me in it, can only take out three of the remaining tanks.

 

The A-10's do a great job of clearing the tanks on the right of the bridge (my right, enemy left) but do leave about two behind, one close to the bridge and the other with the BTR.

 

That is where I stopped as the T-80's missiles just owned my M1, I got three of them (the ones on the left of the bridge) but the ones on the right have a good LOS and to advance on them I expose myself to the fire from the hill.

 

Arty is fairly good, though it lacks smoke, but if I target a tank with the Lazar range finder and keep the dispersement within 10 metres, the arty will take out one of their tanks, just takes a bit.

 

I do find the AI is a bit weak, as I can drive by the T80's in the HMMV and raise royal havoc in their rear (ie. spank the AA, command, arty and support vehicles) with the T-80's just watching. But drive a M1 up and they go ape.....

 

 

Regarding your losses, one M1 doesn't seem too bad. You have to know that you'll always take losses. Impossible not to have. The discussion here was more on how to give you a fighting chance not to prevent any losses. So far, the AI does seem to have issues in manoeuvring smartly. You can take that to your advantage. I don't want to go into what should be changed or not since, from what I can tell, ED has a couple of years work to try and make DCS a believable ground warfare sim. But for now, use terrain, and integrate your assets as best as you can. Use forces like IFVs, infantry and artillery to pin down enemy units and Assemble IFVs and tanks as your striking arm. Manoeuvre, manoeuvre, manoeuvre and then, some more manoeuvre. Time your attacks right so that you can always engage with local superiority and, once you attack, no hesitation. If you hesitate, you screw up timings, attacks become disjointed and more losses on your side. It is better to have an unimaginative general who just pushes forward then a genius who reacts to everything loosing his cohesion and diluting his attack punch. Take the example of Blücher. Not a great tactician but, once he attacked, he'd hold on to his attack like a pitbull to a bone. He ended up defeating Napoleon THE master of manoeuvre. Napoleon was hesitant, Blücher was not.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Maior

[Ripcord]

Ripcord,

 

IRL arty is a huge force multiplier. With some of todays technology available on the battlefield ground radar can find out here incomming rounds are coming from by analysis the bullets trajectory and speed. They are called counter battery radars.

 

With that said Arty uses shoot and scoot tactics. The means by which a arty position FIRES one mission (whatever the desired effect is) and then scoots to the next location and repeat.

 

Absolutely any forces in the way of artillery would move or continue moving. To stand the ground is suicide.

 

Hope that helps.

 

63

 

It does help in fact, thanks. I will be sure I am getting the most out of my arty, going forward. Damn sure will keep the armor in reserve a little longer, until the arty has done their thing, along with the air assets.

[Frogisis]

Moving obliquely to the enemy seems to neutralize the effectiveness of AT missiles pretty well. I can send 4 M1s against 4 Russian tanks of any kind, and as long as they're moving sideways, the missiles whiz by them harmlessly over 90% of the time. The Russian tanks expend all their missiles, and then you can just approach them head on.

For whatever reason it seems the T-72 has much better aim with the missiles than the 80 or the 90, though - 4 M1s on "excellent" regularly annihilated 4 80s or 90s also on "excellent" by going diagonally across the field in an echelon formation, but the 72's missiles would connect with some regularity.

[Bruce_D]

Moving obliquely to the enemy seems to neutralize the effectiveness of AT missiles pretty well. I can send 4 M1s against 4 Russian tanks of any kind, and as long as they're moving sideways, the missiles whiz by them harmlessly over 90% of the time. The Russian tanks expend all their missiles, and then you can just approach them head on.

For whatever reason it seems the T-72 has much better aim with the missiles than the 80 or the 90, though - 4 M1s on "excellent" regularly annihilated 4 80s or 90s also on "excellent" by going diagonally across the field in an echelon formation, but the 72's missiles would connect with some regularity.

 

Yes, but you have to drive fast (more than 50km/h).

[Geskes]

These missions have balanced force ratio's. When on the assault you need either some force multipliers the enemy lacks, or you need about a 3:1 numerical advantage. That is, if you want to have a combat capable unit after the assault.

 

So, in most CA scenarios you need to work to concentrate your forces onthe enemies weakest position. For example it means it is futile to move forward with a single armor platoon because the enemies defensive positions seem to be grouped in at least platoon size as well.